I had a look at Victory Model today in 38 Special - pictures below. I thought that all Victory models were in 38 S&W especially since this is a South African Police (SAP) marked gun. Serial number is 2245**.

I checked the cylinder and the charge holes dont appear to have been reemed. Can anybody assist with information? Were Victory Models made in 38 Special?

Racingsnake, Yes, Victory/pre-victory did come in .38 Spl. True, most of the orders from the commomwealth were in .38 S&W.
Let me get you headed toward questions the more expert folks are going to ask you. Does it have a V on the other side of the lanyard ring. I can't tell for sure but that looks like a five inch barrel to me, is it? And are there any other marks on the top strap or back strap.
Wish my S.A. contract was a .38 spl.
Larry

Hi Larry, thanks for your reply.

I don't recall seeing any acceptance stamps - no V, no broad arrow.

The gun has S.A.P stamped on the back strap, which is the usual stamping for South African Police. The SAP used Victory Models and Webleys from sometime after WWII up until the late 1970's but usually in 38S&W.

There are none of S&W Patent roll marked on the top of the barrel like some of the Victory Models.

You're correct on the barrel length - I think it is a five inch.

The hammer profile suggests a post-war short hammer throw and the ejector rod tip also looks post-WWII.

I believe there should be a letter prefix to the serial number, but not a "V" . . . perhaps a "C". The letter prefix could be far to the left of the number.

Can't offer any explanation for the SAP marking.

Russ

I agree, the serial number as given makes no sense given what you can tell from the photos. Certainly not a Victory, appears to be a postwar M&P with 30's vintage service stocks mounted, which just further muddies the water....

__________________
SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

What is the serial number on the butt of the frame? This is the location of the actual serial number. It should also appear on the back of the cylinder and on the barrel flat.

Hope this helps.

Steve

EDITED: I got this wildly wrong in my original post. I misread the narrative and picture and thought we were talking about a Pre-Model 11.

This is just a Pre-Model 10. It has or had or should have had a C-prefix to the serial number.

Santa Ana Police? San Antonio Police? This doesn't have to be a commonwealth revolver in a peculiar (for them) caliber.

Yes, those are 1930s era service stocks. I would expect that this gun was shipped with postwar Magnas on it.

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David Wilson

The butt swivel is suggestive of an old time police provenance, but you make a good point with regard to any assumption as to where it may have served. At this point, I'd like to see a photo of the backstrap marking and get the serial number question settled.

__________________
SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Definitely a post war gun. Serial given is incorrect. Looks blued not parked. Seems like a 1946-1955 M&P that happens to have a ring and early style stocks.

I have not seen any South African Police guns marked as such on the backstrap. Every one I have seen is marked on the frame, usually on the RHS.

The SAP certainly purchased some Model 11 guns, but these were in .38 S&W.

Peter
near Pretoria

Various posters were correct and I made an error - the serial number does have a C prefix.

I also should have mentioned that like Peter (last post) I am in South Africa so I'm certain it's a police issue. I have seen various Voctoy models in 38 S&W stamped on the back strap but this is the first SAP issued M&P I've seen in 38 Special. Up until now I was sure that only 38 S&W's were issued.

Thank you for the clarification. I knew that few .38 Special Victories had turned up with British proofs, so they were obviously issued there. I had not previously heard of .38 Special revolvers in South Africa, so I'm with you on that .. this is a first for me.

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David Wilson

Hi David,

There are a lot of civilian S&W's in 38 Special in circulation, mostly model 10's and 36's but when the police moved away from the 38S&W I thought they went directly to 9mm (Walther P38's) - was not aware of 38 Special M&P's.

Regards, Racingsnake

Look at the gun carefully. I think it had Magna stocks, and they left a mark!

That squiggle hammer is definitely postwar.

Could be some other police force, or just owned by some guy with those initials.

Does it have any known South African connection?

I think the SAP revolvers were replaced with Walther P-1's, later Beretta M-92's and the local version, the Z-88. (American readers should keep in mind that South Africa, pretty much alone in Africa, is an industrial country, able to make its own arms, including FN/FAL and Galil rifles.)

ADDED:

Just saw Racing Snake's post about being South African. That model in .38 Special was RCMP- issued from 1954-the mid 1990's, when a DA-only S&W 9mm replaced them. Might the SAP have tried some, to see if the caliber was better? To use what could be obtained in view of the UN sanctions against the Pretoria govt. prior to black power taking over in the 1990's? But that came after this gun was made, post 1960, when the Republic of South Africa replaced the old Union. Smith & Wesson was able to ship guns directly there then. Later, they had to be smuggled in from other countries. I understand that if one had the money, he could still get most guns, most of the time. The Model 10 would be one of the more common items.

The RCMP did absorb some local and Provincial forces, and some non-standard guns came with them. Might this situation have also occurred in South Africa?

The M&P/Model 10 has certainly been sold there commercially. It wouldn't have been hard to find one. That is one of the many guns pictured in the late David W. Arnold's, Shoot a Handgun. He wrote that before leaving SA.

As for the P-38, I published an article in, American Handgunner about 1980, in which I covered Ruger's .22 pistol, in both basic and MK. 1 form. I knew that some had seen very extensive use in SA due to the embargo making it fairly hard to get new ones. (Ruger asked that I stress that they did NOT ship in violation of the sanctions; the guns came through Euro sources, where it was legal for Ruger to sell.) Anyway, I corresponded with several men in SA about guns. I got my answers for the Ruger .22 story, and learned that the 9mm Walthers used by the SAP had the light alloy frames. That's why I posted that they were P-1's. But many were marked as P-38's, so Running Snake is correct in the markings, too. The gun is the same. Probably, only German service weapons bear the P-1 marking, come to think of that. Incidentally, David Arnold carried one of those P-38's while in the British South Africa Police in Rhodesia. He preferred the Colt .45 auto, but that is what he was issued, and 9mm ammo was also more plentiful. David told me that he had considerably more faith in the stopping power of the 9mm ball than most of us have. And he had access to many field reports of its use! (My son has also killed nine men in Iraq with 9mm ball. He would have preferred JHP ammo, but the NATO ball worked.)

Running Snake, I thought you might be South African. Your name put me in mind of the speed of the Black Mamba. (Dendroaspis polylepis.) I don't really believe that a mamba can run down a horse and bite the rider (probably a myth), unless the ground is more favorable for the snake than for the horse. But they are known to reach at least 12 miles per hour. Did you choose your board name in view of the mamba's legendary speed? Just curious.