Model Identification

miataone · #1 09-07-2011, 06:58 PM

I am trying to identify an old .45 revolver that I have. The barrel is marked S&W D.A.45, and has a patent date of Sept 14, 1909. It has a six digit serial number starting with 174. The only other marking besides the serial is a tiny figure that looks like an eagle symbol with S2 under it. It does not have a lanyard loop, but there is a place on the butt where one could be installed.
Any and all help is appreciated!

DCWilson · #2 09-07-2011, 07:29 PM

That's a US Army Model of 1917 in .45 ACP caliber. There is a possibility that this particular gun was part of the second Brazilian contract (1946), and that upon its return to the US for commercial sale it was scrubbed of its Brazilian side-plate stamp and possibly other markings pointing to its original identity. It does appear to have been refinished, but not hastily or badly. For example, the sidesplate seems still to be a good fit, and there is no gully where the sideplate edge meets the frame.

I have a Brazilian with a serial number in the 173xxx range, not far away from your gun. It is a great shooter.

The S2 and eagle are military inspector stamps.

Sometimes Brazilians can have parts from other guns in them. Check the rear of the cylinder and the flat underside of the barrel to see if the same serial number is found here. The serial number is also found on the face of the yoke that is adjacent to the front of the cylinder. Sometimes you can read that one with a sidelight while peering through one of the holes in the cylinder.

Even though the parts of this Brazilian were manufactured in the 1920s, it was probably not assembled until 1946 if it is indeed a Brazilian second contract revolver.

JSR III · #3 09-07-2011, 07:35 PM

Welcome to the forum. What you have is a model of 1917 45 DA army revolver. It fires the .45 ACP and .45 auto rim cartridges. For .45 ACP you will need half moon clips.

What is the finish? It almost looks like nickel from the photos but hard to tell sometimes with different lighting.

Is there any marking under the barrel? Usually these were marked "UNITED STATES PROPERTY".

The small eagle symbols with S1 or S2 etc. underneath are Springfield Armory inspector symbols. Numbers in the yoke and on the frame opposite the yoke are S&W factory assembly numbers and of no real significance now.

DAVID BEAT ME TO THE PUNCH WHILE I WAS TYPING, THATS WHY HE HAS ALMOST 6000 POSTS, HE'S JUST FASTER.

miataone · #4 09-07-2011, 07:51 PM

The Serial numbers match in all locations as you described. There is no U.S. Property or other makings of that type. It appears to be a nickel finish, probably done early in the life of the gun.
Is the Blue Book fairly accurate in its valuations of this gun? I presume the nickel finish would be a minus?
Thanks so much for sharing your expertise!

JSR III · #5 09-07-2011, 08:03 PM

Is that a small S&W logo on the left side partially hidden by the stocks? (Those are not correct for the gun either) Is there any trace of a flaming bomb symbol above the recoil shield on the left side?

I am guessing that this is a commercial model. The nickel appears old and correct as the hammer and trigger are not nickel. Try removing the stocks and look on the left side of the frame for any marks there.

miataone · #6 09-07-2011, 09:21 PM

Yes, there is a S&W trademark on the left partially obscured by the grip. I don't see any other markings on the left side of the grip.

DCWilson · #7 09-07-2011, 11:38 PM

My second contract Brazilian also has the S&W logo on the left side. That logo is diagnostic for commercial models among the early 1917s, but later contract models have it as well.

handejector · #8 09-08-2011, 09:18 AM

I need some better pics, PARTICULARLY of barrel markings.

I'm pretty good at judging finish originality, and from what I see now, that gun MAY be an original Commercial 1917 in nickel.

Does it have the sharp shoulder in the chambers for the 45 ACP to headspace on?
Try a 45 Long Colt and see if it will chamber.

miataone · #9 09-08-2011, 09:43 AM

I will try to get some better pictures and post them this evening, when I am back at home. I will also take a close look again to try to answer all questions. Thanks!

bettis1 · #10 09-08-2011, 10:58 AM

Can't ever remember going against Lee's judgement before, but based on the pulling of the upper screw hole, I put my vote in the refinish column.

Bob

P.S.
Also, the edges of the flutes look a little "soft" from what I can see. I agree that clearer photos are necessary to make a final decision.

B.

DCWilson · #11 09-08-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bettis1

Can't ever remember going against Lee's judgement before, but based on the pulling of the upper screw hole, I put my vote in the refinish column.

Bob

I kind of worried about that too, as well as the seeming corner softness on the front of the frame. But it wouldn't be too hard for me to acknowledge error if it turns out that this is the real deal.

For the moment I still marginally favor the idea it is a second-contract Brazilian some of whose markings have been polished off -- carefully polished, to be sure, but still polished.

bettis1 · #12 09-08-2011, 11:08 AM

Miataone,

No one has mentioned the grips. They are presentation style and obviously from a much later era than the revolver. They appear to be very nice ones.

Bob

handejector · #13 09-08-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bettis1

Can't ever remember going against Lee's judgement before, but based on the pulling of the upper screw hole, I put my vote in the refinish column.

Bob

P.S.
Also, the edges of the flutes look a little "soft" from what I can see. I agree that clearer photos are necessary to make a final decision.

B.

Now we have to get into the "advanced photo interpretation", and memory of a key history point.

First, photo interpretation- glare makes edges look soft. Look at the lower flute in the pic of the bottom of the gun. That lower flute is shadowed, so NO glare, and looks pretty sharp-edged.

Second, we get to history when we consider the slightly pulled upper hole-
Remember, at least two of the 3 known nickel 17's were simply blue guns pulled from the vault and nickeled. That means they were polished twice, and nickel guns are traditionally polished heavier than blue.
At least one of those 3 guns still wears the "B"'s for Blue, so looking for N's on this gun may be futile and only confusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

For the moment I still marginally favor the idea it is a second-contract Brazilian some of whose markings have been polished off -- carefully polished, to be sure, but still polished.

This gun does not speak Portuguese.

Never did.
BOTH contracts had "Made in USA" on the frames.

miataone · #14 09-08-2011, 06:02 PM

I have trouble getting good close-up pictures with the camera equipment that I have available. Hopefully these will give some more fodder for the discussion!

miataone · #15 09-08-2011, 06:40 PM

The markings on the barrel say Smith & Wesson Springfield MASS USA Patented Dec.17.1901.Feb.6.1906.Sep.14

handejector · #16 09-08-2011, 07:34 PM

Sorry, but they just aren't sharp enough to help me out.

In the first set of pics, the hammer and trigger look case colored in the right side view.
In these, they look blued. Are they blued?

miataone · #17 09-08-2011, 07:45 PM

The hammer and trigger are both blued. I will see if I can get my son-in-law to bring his expensive camera by this weekend and maybe I can get some better close up pictures for you guys.
Alan

handejector · #18 09-08-2011, 07:48 PM

Blue on those is not sounding good. Funny, the hammer sure looks case colored in the first right side view.

bettis1 · #19 09-08-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

Now we have to get into the "advanced photo interpretation", and memory of a key history point.

First, photo interpretation- glare makes edges look soft. Look at the lower flute in the pic of the bottom of the gun. That lower flute is shadowed, so NO glare, and looks pretty sharp-edged.

Second, we get to history when we consider the slightly pulled upper hole-
Remember, at least two of the 3 known nickel 17's were simply blue guns pulled from the vault and nickeled. That means they were polished twice, and nickel guns are traditionally polished heavier than blue.
At least one of those 3 guns still wears the "B"'s for Blue, so looking for N's on this gun may be futile and only confusing.

Good points, Lee.
But, in "Advanced Photo Interpretation 201" I think that I recall that when an unskilled polisher applies a rotating polishing wheel to a circular cylinder, the wheel leaving the "first, high side" of the flute will not round the corner but when it cuts the "second, low side" of the flute it will cut the edge of the angle.

Regarding the "second polish" to change a formerly blued gun to a nickel one, my gut would tell me that a Factory polisher who attempted to polish a frame without first putting "dummy" polishing screws in the holes wouldn't be around to make the same mistake again.

Bob

miataone · #20 09-12-2011, 09:50 PM

These are the best pictures I can get. It is hard to get clear close-up because of the reflection.
What is your best guess as to exactly which version of the '17, and what would be a fair asking price if I were to post it for sale?
Alan

miataone · #21 09-21-2011, 06:07 PM

In case anyone cares, the revolver has been carefully examined by "experts", who have determined that it is a commercial model, but that what appeared to be nickel is actually polished steel.
A big thank you to everyone that helped me identify this gun! Now I can shoot it at will without worry of harming its value! (It is a nice tight gun, too.)

bettis1 · #22 09-21-2011, 08:33 PM

Polished steel. That's interesting. Someone probably was in the process of refinishing and just never completed the job. You are right that it will make a great shooter. You may want to consider putting some sort of protective finish on it since the most expensive part (the polishing) has already been done for you. Raw metal will require a good bit of care to keep it from corroding.

Bob