.38+P ammo is the same as pre 1972 ammo?

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Doug.38PR

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.38 Special - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overpressure ammunition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've heard it said on this and other gun forums by those who regularly handload and shoot a jillion +P rounds through their 1930whatever K frames that ".38+P is no big deal, it's not a hot load it's the same thing as .38 Special was years ago" before companies reduced the pressure for their cartridges while more conservative people in these gun forums say "That's not correct, .38 Special is the same now as it was 50 years ago and if the factory says it's a hot load or to not do it, then they might just know something you don't."
I've never seen this anywhere officially or in writing other than "I saw it on a gun forum" that .38+P is the same as standard was years ago. Well, now somebody on wikipedia is saying the same thing as seen in these two articles. Furthermore it is claimed that companies reduced their loads in 1972 and stamped +P on what was standard prior to 1972

I note the people on the wikipedia articles are not giving a source for their claim
 
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Thanks Doug for bringing this up. I too have wondered the same thing for a long time. What is really the truth, and who is blowing smoke?
 
When I was young, the standard 38 Special load was a 158 grain bullet at about 850-900 FPS. I have chronographed numerous boxes of vintage ammo and confirmed this fact. The current standard 38 Special load with a 158 grain bullet clocks a pathetic 730 FPS. The standard load has been greatly reduced over the years.

The maximum allowable pressure for the 38 Special is 21,500 FPS. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI so it is in fact a mild load. It is not "over pressure" (as +P might suggest). It is not even loaded to full pressure. It is loaded BELOW pressure. The 730 FPS load is at 16,000 PSI, BTW.

The notion that +P is in any way a hot load is nothing but marketing hype. All that is needed is to look at the actual chamber pressure to see how mild it actually is.
 
I don't think anybody in here (or elsewhere) is "blowing smoke" on this question. I think both sides have valid reasons for what they say. The .38 Special has been around for like 100 years. it has a lot of history behind it.
 
I suspect that 38 special and 38+P are being loaded to reduced pressures. After all, the ammo countries have to load ammo to be safe in the weakest/oldest/most wornout firearm that may be chambered for it. To do otherwise is to risk multi-million dollar lawsuits when some old clapped out rusted pistol blows from a factory load, and the shooter, or a bystander, are injured. Many calibers, both rifle and pistol are being loaded by the factories to reduced pressures. This is done reduce lawsuits. Blame the lawyers, the courts and our litigious society.
 
SaxonPig said:
When I was young, the standard 38 Special load was a 158 grain bullet at about 850-900 FPS. I have chronographed numerous boxes of vintage ammo and confirmed this fact. The current standard 38 Special load with a 158 grain bullet clocks a pathetic 730 FPS. The standard load has been greatly reduced over the years.

The maximum allowable pressure for the 38 Special is 21,500 FPS. Factory +P is loaded to 18,500 PSI so it is in fact a mild load. It is not "over pressure" (as +P might suggest). It is not even loaded to full pressure. It is loaded BELOW pressure. The 730 FPS load is at 16,000 PSI, BTW.

The notion that +P is in any way a hot load is nothing but marketing hype. All that is needed is to look at the actual chamber pressure to see how mild it actually is.
Click to expand...

Saxon,
you have the equipment to measure preassure per square inch? If not,how did you calculate the PSI for each of these rounds?
 
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38 Special

I believe what Saxon is saying is correct. I'm old enough to remember the standard 38 special round from decades past. By this I mean the 1960's and '70s. This round used the ubiquitous 158 gr. lead round nose bullet and was carried in many a LEOS Colt or Smith & Wesson .38 duty revolver (including my dad's). Now when Super Vel came along it was a whole new ball game. I still have a partial box of 38 special Super Vel from the 1970's that my dad gave me. He told me that it was department policy that only police issue standard 38 specials could be loaded in the service revolver. What you put in your off-duty revolver was your own business. I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. I keep these old "+P" rounds in my collection and would never use them since they can't be replaced. I would invite comment on Super Vel versus todays +P 38 specials (not to hijack this thread though).
 
Over on the Colt forum (I won't post a link as I remember the mods and admin. around here don't like people posting links to other forums) I posted this same thread in the revolver section. There is a gentleman in there who claims to have worked for two ammo companies and insists ammo loads were not reduced. That +P simply means higher pressure which doesn't necessarily mean increased velocity. I believe he is under the impression that a lot of people confuse these "old" standard .38s that give you 900 ft per second with old Hi-Speed, etc. rounds. (which, from what Saxon Pig is saying, is incorrect as he has fired many such old rounds and is positive they are standard and not Hi-Speed)
 
keithpip said:
I believe what Saxon is saying is correct. I'm old enough to remember the standard 38 special round from decades past. By this I mean the 1960's and '70s. This round used the ubiquitous 158 gr. lead round nose bullet and was carried in many a LEOS Colt or Smith & Wesson .38 duty revolver (including my dad's). Now when Super Vel came along it was a whole new ball game. I still have a partial box of 38 special Super Vel from the 1970's that my dad gave me. He told me that it was department policy that only police issue standard 38 specials could be loaded in the service revolver. What you put in your off-duty revolver was your own business. I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. I keep these old "+P" rounds in my collection and would never use them since they can't be replaced. I would invite comment on Super Vel versus todays +P 38 specials (not to hijack this thread though).
Click to expand...


I shot a lot of the old Super-Vel ammo in both 38 spl & 357 Mag.

Now that thar is the real deal on the +P scale...Sur nuf make the ponies jump. ;)

And let's not forget some of the 60s & 70s Norma loadings. Boy Howdy!


Su Amigo,
Dave
 
My old Lyman cast bullet loading manual (from the early 80's, not too old) list's the most accurate load with the lead RNFP as 4.9 gr. 231 for 906 fps. I load it and it is my most accurate load. It is not listed as a plus P, but at the top of the standard velocity loads.
 
keithpip said:
I remember dad putting the SV rounds in his Smith Chief Special Airweight. As far as I know he never fired any of these SV rounds out of his off-duty gun. Probably a good thing. .
Click to expand...

keith44spl said:
I shot a lot of the old Super-Vel ammo in both 38 spl & 357 Mag.

Now that thar is the real deal on the +P scale...Sur nuf make the ponies jump. ;)

Su Amigo,
Dave
Click to expand...

I fired some of the original Super-Vel loads in my standard weight Chiefs Special in the early 70s. First cylinder full, after either the second or third shot, the next round up slipped the crimp and tied up the revolver. I think the box got thrown out, but I still have 10-15 rounds of the loads somewhere.
 
The only 38 +P round I would consider "hot today" is the Buffalo Bore 158gr +P LSWCHP round rated at 1100 fps. I don't know if this is out of a 4 inch revolver or what but I have used them in my S&W model 10 heavy barrel and believe this is not the standard +P round made by other ammo makers.
Howard
 
Doug, the individual pressure figures are published by the manufacturers. The maximum figure is from SAAMI and is readily available. No need to do your own testing.

Higher pressure equals more velocity.
 
In the early '70s, my Pappy bought an "S" serial numbered M&P. The salesman also sold him a box of Super Vel ammo, saying it was the best around.

Pappy shot 6 rounds, I shot 6 rounds, and my mom shot one round (# 13). The revolver jammed. An inspection showed that the forcing cone had split.

The shop sent the M&P back to Smith, who installed a new barrel. The Super Vel was swapped for a box of standard RNL ammo.
 
DOUG38, interesting thread. I have often wondered about the 38 special. The one thing I have not been able to see in actual writing is the original SAMMI pressures of the pre 1972 ammo. I have heard it before but never actually seen it on a SAMMI information sheet. Do you know where I might be able to acsess this imformation?
 
redlevel said:
I fired some of the original Super-Vel loads in my standard weight Chiefs Special in the early 70s. First cylinder full, after either the second or third shot, the next round up slipped the crimp and tied up the revolver. I think the box got thrown out, but I still have 10-15 rounds of the loads somewhere.
Click to expand...



Yup,

That SV would jump the crimp in them lighter frame revolvers.

I had a old HD and of course a 27 to shoot that hot rod ammo in. ;):D

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
I have shot 158 gr. bul. with 12 grs. of 2400 out of several post war S&W "K" frames and Colt Police Postive and Official Police without any problems but I probably never shot over a box or two out of each gun. I believe there is a good reason that S&W made the 38/44. I have shot unknown how many thousands of them out of .357 guns and I don't think a regular "K" frame will stand up to a steady diet of them. Just my opinion and it is probably worth what you paid for it. Larry
 
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