New to Board and S&W revolvers Neep help 5" 5 Screw

[craig0ry]

Well this is my first post and first S&W revolver, It was a bit of an impulse buy and now Iam trying to find out more information on it, Hoping I didnt make a mistake

All I know so far is its a S&W 5 Screw hand ejector 38s&w converted to 38 Special. Its very solid but reading more about it Iam not sure I made the right choice.

Information Iam looking for is:
What load is safe to shoot in this gun? (I have an abundance of bullseye pistol powder and 125gr lead RN bullets!!)

Its it able to handle modern 38spl ammuntion? (Bottom of barrel is marked 4 tons square In. In the UK,"BNP" the 2240 lb long ton would be the one in most common use. Thus, 4 tons per square inch would be 8,960 psi. And I believe modern 38spl is around 17000psi)

Year?

Exact Model?

Any and all info is greatly appriciated!

Pics

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. That specific model is called the British Service Revolver, which is a variety of the .38 Military & Police. This particular M&P configuration is also called at this time the Model of 1905 fourth change. The BSR is the same as the American M&P in .38 Special, except that it chambered the shorter .38 S&W round. The British called it the .38/200 because the standard British military load featured a 200 gr lead bullet, about one-fourth heavier than the bullet in the .38 Special. Just to bury you in naming options, the BSR is also called the K-200 by collectors.

The serial number you see on the barrel flat (and which you should also see on the rear face of the cylinder and the butt of the revolver) indicates production in early 1942. Some guns with nearby serial numbers were shipping in April of that year.

The gun was converted to .38 Special in England when it was dismissed from military service. The proof marks you see were required to certify that the gun was safe for use in the commercial and non-military market.

Some British conversions from .38 S&W to .38 Special involved merely grinding out the chambers to accept the longer .38 Special cartridge. The disadvantage of this is that the .38 Special case is of slightly smaller diameter than the .38 S&W case, so shooting the longer rounds can lead to swollen or, in the worst case, split cases.

But not all British conversions got the simple conversion. Some were converted by sleeving the chambers, then rechambering them for .38 Special. That way the .38 S&W rounds would no longer fit. Check the cylinder to see if your charge holes were sleeved or not. If not, you should probably see two rings inside each chamber -- one for the case length of the shorter round, and another for the longer .38 Special.

If the gun still chambers the .38 S&W, it should be completely safe to shoot that round. Some say accuracy may suffer slightly in this case, but these were never meant to be target revolvers. If you want to shoot .38 Special, the gun won't explode. I wouldn't shoot +P ammo in it, though others will tell you that is OK. Any modern standard 38 Special ammo would probably be OK. Just be mindful of possible case swelling.

The earliest British revolvers were blued, but as the war proceeded later guns were shipped with a rough phosphate finish. This one looks blued, so it may have been refinished when it was converted.

Hope that helps.

[gkitch]

David did not mention the grips, which are not S&W factory. I would assume these are aftermarket replacements, but might they be unique to these British revolvers?

[craig0ry]

Thank you gentlmen for the wealth of information! It was much more than I was expecting to get.

On another side note, Will regular K frame grips fit this revolver?

And does anyone have a load suggestion for me? Using 125gr lead RN bullets and bullseye pistol powder. My loading book doesnt show any except for jacketed and Iam having a tough time tracking one down online. I dont want to over pressure the gun.

Thanks again!

[craig0ry]

Edit: I just tried a 38s&w round and it will not chamber into the cylinder, and a closer look shows that they are sleeved. Which is an advantage over having the cylinder ground out I immagine?


Thank you gentlmen for the wealth of information! It was much more than I was expecting to get.

On another side note, Will regular K frame grips fit this revolver?

And does anyone have a load suggestion for me? Using 125gr lead RN bullets and bullseye pistol powder. My loading book doesnt show any except for jacketed and Iam having a tough time tracking one down online. I dont want to over pressure the gun.

Thanks again!

[scha]

My Lyman Reloading Handbook (46th edition) shows a 38 S&W load for a 121 grain lead bullet - starting load is 2.0 of Bullseye and max load is 3.0 of bullseye. For the same bullet in 38 Special, it shows a starting load of 2.8 grains Bullseye and a max load of 4.6 grains.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[craig0ry]

It does very much, Thank you.

Also my curious side wants to know. Iam in Canada and I was wondering what these revolver go for in the states? Or what this specific one would be worth? After browsing the exchange forum it seems most firearms are much much cheaper state side than here, but there seems to be the occasional one that seems alot more than we would pay.

[glowe]

If I am not mistaken, a 4 ton proof is 12,000psi rating. This is quite low as compared to modern revolvers, so keep the powder charge light.

Per the 1954 British Rules of Proof, here are the equivalent service pressure values:
3 tons 8,938 psi
3 1/4 tons 9,682 psi
3 1/2 tons 10,427 psi
4 tons 11,917 psi

Standard Pressures for .38 Specials factory loads:
.38 Special 158 gr 940 ft/s 310 ft·lbf 17,000 PSI
.38 Special +P 158 gr 1,000 ft/s 351 ft·lbf 20,000 PSI
.38 Special +P+ 110 gr 1,100 ft/s 295 ft·lbf >20,000 PSI

Safe thing is to load light bullets and smallest load listed on reloading tables. Actually, those loads are the most fun to shoot and can be quite accurate.

[glowe]

I have not purchased any of these, but Supica's 3rd edition states VG $365 and Exc $500. I would guess using the lower number for your revolver without original grips.

Only one sold in the last 30 days on GB and price was $395 with original grips.

[DCWilson]

Yes, sleeved cylinders are what you want to see in a converted BSR. I'm glad to hear that's the way that gun was changed over to .38 Special.

K-frame grips will definitely fit that gun. You can find correct prewar service stocks on Gunbroker or Ebay (or sometimes right here in the classifieds). You can also use magna stocks, if you'd like. They won't be authentic in terms of age, but they are the most familiar factory grip for the M&P revolvers.

South of your border that gun would probably be considered a $250-325 shooter (regional variation comes into play). Collectors would not be drawn to it because it is not completely original, so its value is based solely on current mechanical condition and utility. As a shooter it is in competition with tens of thousands of similar wartime guns that were .38 Specials to start with.

Actually, I kind of like it and might consider dropping $350 on it if I saw it on a consignment shelf here in California.

I'm not a reloader, but it looks as though you have some good comments from others who are.

[craig0ry]

Thanks again everyone, you've been most helpful!

[Matt_G]

Originally Posted by scha

For the same bullet in 38 Special, it shows a starting load of 2.8 grains Bullseye and a max load of 4.6 grains.

Hope this helps.

Steve

To expound somewhat on Steve's post, the 121 gr. lead round nose Bullseye powder load for .38 Special lists the velocity on the 2.8 gr. as 690 f.p.s.
The pressure on it is 8,600 c.u.p.

The max load of 4.6 grains of Bullseye is listed as 1001 f.p.s and 16,400 c.u.p.

[glowe]

CraigOry - you should be aware that CUP (copper units of pressure) numbers are different than PSI. The numbers posted by Matt G are CUP numbers. At the low end of the pressure chart posted below, the numbers are similar, but the correlation is not a linear progression.

For those who are interested, there is a research paper titled "Correlating PSI and CUP" by Denton Bramwell, that does a great job of comparing CUP to PSI. The chart gives the reader a great comparison of pressures up to 70,000 psi.

Bramwell states the following conclusions:

1. PSI (correct use) is highly correlated to CUP.
2. CUP is mainly an indicator of peak chamber pressure.
3. You can convert from one system of measurement to the other.

Remember that the max load stated by Matt G is over your proof on the revolver. I am concerned that there may be no .38 Special loads available, over the counter, that will be below your 12,000psi max. That is why I reload for these old hand-ejectors.