New To Forum, I have a gun.... 357 Magnum Transitional Postwar

[ACK95]

Hello

I just registered to the forum. So hello and Merry Christmas.

I have a gun, it is a post war pre 27, it is an "S" model, and it is a 47-48 year, Ser# S 71,XXX

N Frame, 357 magnum transition model. This is one of the 142 produced during the transition period as per the 2006 S&W Book. It has everything to a T, as per the book.

Obviously, the book states that this gun in any configuration is worth between 8k to 10k in great shape, but that was as of 2006, and I have what I believe is the original box as well.

Questions I have are:

1. Rarity- If it is 1 of 142, how many others of the 142 are known of? Do you know of their whereabouts or any that have sold? Any info would be a help on the current history of the 142 guns.

2. Being almost a 6 year old book, is there any resource available that could tell me more than the 06 book does?

I believe I have the needle in the haystack.

Thanks, and look forward to your comments....

[handejector]

Welcome aboard.
A very desirable gun.
Yes, we know where several of them are.
What barrel length? Tell us about the box, and pics would be great.
Value will be affected by condition and originality. I can tell you that the economy has not helped the market the last three years. Your gun is desirable and saleable, even in tough times, but it still comes back to originality and condition.

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

What is the barrel length?

I'm sure the experts will be along soon.

[ACK95]

It is a 3.5" Barrel, and the condition I would say is most definitely in the mid 90% range. I will try to post photos soon. The box is all blue, with no markings or writing on it whatsoever, and as I read in the Smith book, it stated that during that time, these could have been ordered and sent to FBI agents. The box is absolutely clean, blue, no writing at all, and has the metal corners that hold the lid together. It has the paper inside that the gun was to be wrapped or covered in as well. I would say the box is easily in the 90%+ range of condition as well, but others may tell me otherwise, as I am not an aficionado of how to rate guns or their boxes.

Look forward to more replies.
Thanks

[Muley Gil]

In my experience, a plain blue box would have been used to ship a revolver back to owner, after that owner had shipped it to the factory for a repair, modification, refinish, etc.

I THINK it would have shipped originally in a gold box, or even a maroon box. I really don't know all that much about boxes. I used to use them to seperate my brass while reloading.

[RKmesa]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

I THINK it would have shipped originally in a gold box, or even a maroon box.

...or maybe a blue pre-war 357 Magnum box as well.

I'm looking forward to some photos and if you want to sell it, I'm sure that there would be a few of us here (me included) that would be interested in it.

Welcome to the Forum!

[ACK95]

Thank you RKmesa. Seems as there is a lot of information here on the forums, but I am fumbling through it trying to learn about my specific gun.

I tried to take some photos of it earlier, but they all turned out bad due to glare from the artificial lighting, so I am going to take some tomorrow in the natural light to reduce the glare and give everyone a good look at the gun and the box and their condition.

As far as selling it, the answer is yes, I am interested in that depending on my findings, and I am going to call S&W to try to obtain information about where it was shipped to, etc, and a letter from them. If this gun is from the 142 group of transitional 357 magnums, then it should go to someone who will truly appreciate the gun. Not that I don't, I just am uneducated about this gun, yet I am reading a lot and quickly learning. Or.... do I shelf it and hang on to it, as I am only 35 years old, but I can appreciate a good old gun and its quality. As an example, I recently stumbled upon an old Pre 64 Model 70 .243, snagged er up not knowing the value, and was pleasantly suprised at my findings.

So, where can I learn more information on other peoples .357 mag trans post war guns, or even on mine? I have read the most in the smith book, but there has not been much on the net that I can find.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you!!

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. Probably the best selection of information about .357s of any era will be found right here in the forum archives. There is a "search" link in a menu bar near the top of the page that will help you. The Google search box is probably your best bet; its focus is limited to the forum and in my experience is very useful. The forum's built in search function, which you can also try if you want to, is somewhat literal and has some search string length issues that mean you will not be told of some posts that might be relevant.

Definitely looking forward to the pics. I love the postwar transitional N-frames.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

The forum's built in search function, which you can also try if you want to, is somewhat literal and has some search string length issues that mean you will not be told of some posts that might be relevant.

Sticky: SEARCH Instructions

[ACK95]

Thank you for the search info. Pics are coming as we speak.

[ACK95]

Originally Posted by handejector

Welcome aboard.
A very desirable gun.
Yes, we know where several of them are.
What barrel length? Tell us about the box, and pics would be great.
Value will be affected by condition and originality. I can tell you that the economy has not helped the market the last three years. Your gun is desirable and saleable, even in tough times, but it still comes back to originality and condition.

Thanks for the info. When you said "several" I had assumed that 40 or 50 had been accounted for.

I borrowed the following from another thread and posted it here, for my reference and following comments. Just learning about the gun. I borrowed it from the poster listed below. Hope nobody minds. Getting Photos uploaded shortly of my trans gun. Thanks again.

hi
here is a list of the guns we know about from the 142 made.

SERIAL # SHIP DATE CONDITION BARREL
S-71667 1948 85% 3-1/2
S-71598 12/15/1948 98% 3-1/2
S-71642 Nov-46 97% 6
S-71788 1948 90% 5
S-71796 12/23/1948 75% 5
S-71992 12/23/1948 85% 5
S-71655 6/30/1948 98% 8 3/8
S-71885 11/18/1949 97% 8 3/8
S-71972 6/29/1948 99% 8 3/8

most of these were made for police departments and will be in the 5 inch and 3 1/2 inch and most likely will not be in the highest condition.
the 8 3/8 guns were made for special people. the 6 inch were most likely
special order and not for police depts.

Jim Fisher
S&WCA 1491

[ACK95]

The ser# is shown as S-717xx, so right between the ones you already know of.

Not the best of photos, but here you go.

I took the side plates off or wooden grips, and they are stamped the same so the entire gun has matching serial numbers. The one behind the ejector rod on the barrel, the one behind the ejector plate or star (as you push the ejector rod away from the barrel), the bottom of the frame as pictured, and the cyliner. All matching.

Enjoy the photos, and please comment.

[gripper]

You have a nice gun, but.......I think there is a good possibility the barrel has been shortened. It doesn't look right.

Chad Gripp
SWCA #2323

[ACK95]

I am no doubt a lesser educated gun guy, but from what I see, I highly doubt that it has been shortened, but again, less educated....

thanks for the comment for sure!

[RKmesa]

Sorry to be the one that breaks this news, but that gun has been worked on and it does not appear to be a transitional 357... Signs noted from the photos:

1. No roll marks on the sides of the barrel

2. No recessed cylinder - most likely a 38/44 Outdoorsman cylinder that may have been bored to 357 (all 357 cylinders were counter-bored/recessed until 1982)

3. Front sight does not look right (pin also looks buggered or larger than most S&W front sight pins).

4. No concentric circle grooves on the hammer.

My read is that this is a post war transitional Outdoorsman Frame (check the top strap - I assume that it is NOT checkered, as the 357 would be). It looks that the barrel was cut down and the side markings removed (is the top rib on the barrel checkered or just grooved? If grooved, then it is a 38/44 Outdoorsman barrel). Also the ejector rod knob is the later small knob, but the cutout in the barrel shroud is for the larger pre-war knob (a fairly sure sign that the ejector rod has been replaced). The barrel also looks to be refinished - not sure about the frame. If you remove the grips on the left side there should be another rounded pin just below the "horn" on the magna grip (see photo of a prewar Outdoorsman frame below showing the pin just above and to the left of the grip medallion) - if it is flush with the side it has probably been polished smooth when it was refinished.



STILL - very cool looking gun, just not a transitional 357...

Thanks for the photos,

[ACK95]

You had me curious, so I just measured it, and it is 3.5 inches from tip of barrel to the cylinder. So I assume that is a 3.5" barrel.

[gripper]

Most likely cut down from a 6 1/2 inch barrel.

[lowhog]

open the cylinder and look in the ejector rod shroud on the barrel.Do the serial numbers in the shroud match the frame? Serial numbers on the face of the cylinder should also match.

[ACK95]

Yes, every number on the gun matches, so theoretically it is all stock.

The numbers and locations that I found are:

1. On the butt of the gun.
2. On the inside of the grips (match)
3. On the inside of the ejector rod shroud (match)
4. On the face of the cylinder (match)
5. Behind the ejector plate on the cylinder side (match)

The only numbers on the gun that are not the same are where the frame opens up at the cylinder, and my friend told me that was an assembly number or production number or something of that nature.

I appreciate all of your comments, it will really help me narrow down this thing and figure her out!!

Thanks again!
But again, that is why I started this thread to find out about my gun. In the smith book on page 153, it states that even though there were common parts, that they also used alternate parts to manufacture guns, and that of the 142 guns made, they will not all be exactly alike. It even referenced the top groove vs checkering of the top of the barrel and the frame as being one of these instances. And since it was chambered for a .357 I assumed this to be the transitional gun from the period the serial number references. I will have to do more homework on this gun and ultimately call smith and wesson. I called them today, but found out that they are closed until January 4th 2012 for the holiday season, so until I get the actual facts from them, I am assuming, and the seasoned experts here are giving me good factual information based on their knowledge, but I am still not convinced that it is or is not what it is. The book says a lot about the gun and the randomness of the differences/changes from gun to gun. It may be the 38/44, but I have looked at the gun over and over, and had many locals in the last week look at it, and it all looks original as far as the blueing, it appears to be the "SATIN" finish per the smith and wesson book. I have seen many re-blued guns, and in my limited experience, this does not look like a redone job. (again, limited experience). My friend who is an avid S&W guy immediately noticed the fact that the cylinder was not recessed, and it raised his eyebrow a bit. He is the one that I borrowed the book from.

Either way, it is a cool gun, and my first S&W revolver, I own the SW99 .40 cal gun as well, and they are my only 2 pistols. Then I own an old Belgium Browning A-5 shotgun, and an old Winchester model 70 pre 64 in a .243, then a few random common guns that aren't worth mentioning.

[gunnut44]

Still a cool looking gun, too bad it is not what we all thought it was.

[slumpy]

Looks nice to me, but I don't know even close to what the experts do here. So to my untrained eyes it looks like a really nice gun. So it's really nice to have experts here to help out so we don't get burned too bad. Really nice find for your second smith&wesson. Also, would it help to tell if the barrel was cut by having a good picture of the front of it? I would like to know what to look for on a shortened barrel.

[ACK95]

Thanks. I will post more as I find out exactly what it is. Maybe it has been worked on. But how likely is it that it has not been?

You guys should have some opinions on that part. Page 135 and 153 in the 3rd edition Smith and Wesson book is where I referenced the info from..

Thank you all.

[slumpy]

Originally Posted by ACK95

Thanks. I will post more as I find out exactly what it is. Maybe it has been worked on. But how likely is it that it has not been?

You guys should have some opinions on that part. Page 135 and 153 in the 3rd edition Smith and Wesson book is where I referenced the info from..

Thank you all.

????????? Is that it?

[lowhog]

Non-recessed cylinder,satin blue finish.I believe you have a Transitional 38/44 outdoorsman that has been chopped to a 3.5 inch.I hope you don't have alot invested in the gun.Its a 400.00 gun at best.

[lowhog]

Originally Posted by slumpy

Looks nice to me, but I don't know even close to what the experts do here. So to my untrained eyes it looks like a really nice gun. So it's really nice to have experts here to help out so we don't get burned too bad. Really nice find for your second smith&wesson. Also, would it help to tell if the barrel was cut by having a good picture of the front of it? I would like to know what to look for on a shortened barrel.

There are no rollmarks on the barrel.They have been cut off.

[slumpy]

Originally Posted by lowhog

There are no rollmarks on the barrel.They have been cut off.

Thank-you.

[RKmesa]

Originally Posted by ACK95

Thanks. I will post more as I find out exactly what it is. Maybe it has been worked on. But how likely is it that it has not been?

ACK:

I really like the looks of your gun. I do not consider myself an expert, but I own a bunch of pre and post war N-Frame and K-Frame 357 Magnums. I have read all of the articles, books, histories and other information that I can find about N-Frame 357 Magnums. I also own a handful of transitional 38/44's (both Outdoorsman's and Heavy Duties). I have several other early post war transitional guns, and I have never seen one in the post war transitional era that did not have roll marks on the barrel. That in and of itself is a 98% to 99% dead give away to me that your gun has been altered. The fact that all of the numbers match is NOT surprising to me. I'd be willing to bet all $1.00 of my betting money ($1.00 is my max betting limit) that if you spent the $50 to get your gun lettered, you would find that it left the factory as a 38/44 Outdoorsman (see page 156 of SCSW 3rd for a description of the Transitional Outdoorsman). It probably shipped sometime in early 1947. At that time, the 357's were in high demand, but S&W was not producing any, or at least not very many (142 or so). Shooters wanted the 357's very badly and many of the early post war 38/44's had their cylinders bored to accept the 357 Magnum round. I have an early transitional 38/44 Heavy Duty that was bored for 357 and "gunsmith" stamped "357" on the right side of the barrel to reflect the same.

Also, the 38/44 Outdoorsman were primarily configured for hunting and target work so there were very few shipped with barrels shorter than 6.5". So...if a shooter wanted a short barreled adjustable rear sight, ramped front sight 357, but he could not beg, buy or steal one (because there were not any available), he could get an Outdoorsman, take it to his gunsmith, have him shorten the barrel; remove, modify, and replace the Patridge front sight; ream the cylinder charging holes to accept 357 Magnum ammunition; and remove the roll marks from the sides of the barrel. The roll marks were probably removed, as the standard Outdoorsman roll marks would not be centered, and may have been partially cut off, on the shortened 3.5" barrel and would not reflect that the gun had been "converted" to a 357. I am not sure why the ejector rod was changed, but if there was something wrong with it, it is most likely that the "gunsmith" would not have been able to obtain a replacement large knob rod from the factory, as those rods were phased out shortly after the end of the war.

With all of the above, I think that your gun has some cool, period appropriate customizations that appear to be well done and make your gun a great example of what many hand gunners wanted in the late 1940's and early 1950's. Unfortunatly, in general the above modifications (if in fact they are modifications - I know that you continue to hold out hope) significantly decreases the collector value.

[EDITED: I see while I was typing you received a couple of indications of value in the $400 range. I think that that is in the ball park, but I may pay a little more for the cool factor. HOWEVER, I would only shoot 38 S&W Special's through that gun as the 38/44 cylinders were not hardened or certified for the power of the 357 magnum load.]

Like I said, I'm not an expert, but you asked for and have now received my candid, frank observations of your revolver.

[VM]

Originally Posted by lowhog

Non-recessed cylinder,satin blue finish.I believe you have a Transitional 38/44 outdoorsman that has been chopped to a 3.5 inch.I hope you don't have alot invested in the gun.Its a 400.00 gun at best.

I agree w/ the experts that this gun is not original.
Having said that, the gun could be parted out and sold piece by piece for atleast $600.
I'm a Gambler and I'd bet that this gun wouldn't last 15 minutes in the classifieds at $800 as is - the cool Factor is thru the roof.

ACK95 - thanks for sharing.......neat gun!

[ACK95]

That is a lot of information, and I am willing to bet that you guys are right. Yeah..... I hold a small incling of hope, but that is why I came to the source, as my buddy told me I would find most all the information I needed here! And...... I have! You are probably correct about it being a 38/44, and the information makes a ton of sense that you posted.

I did ask, and I wanted to receive info! I am not familiar with roll marks, so I am going to learn about them, so I can be more informed for this and future ventures.

As far as what I am into the gun..... I am in it right enough, even if you were to call it a walmart special made by daisy.... I would still be money ahead....

This forum seems to have a lot of very nice and knowledgeable people here, so I am going to continue my research and read more, now about the .38/44 guns. The history and how these things come about is neat in itself, and I may still just keep the gun regardless, just cause of its history and potential background of how it may have became an altered .357.

I think it is worth my time and 50 bones to get a letter on the gun just so I can say I have it.

Where can I learn about "roll markings" on barrels?

Thanks
Tony

[1Aspenhill]

Are there any markings on the grip frame?
Bill

[DCWilson]

Tony, there's a book by Robert Neal and Roy Jinks called Smith & Wesson: 1857-1945 that has detailed appendices listing the changing patent date blocks you find on S&W gun barrels. Other than patent dates, which do not appear after WWII, barrels usually feature the S&W name on one side and the chambering on the other, usually ending with the abbreviation CTG for cartridge. Some postwar revolvers have model numbers stamped on one side, like Highway Patrolman or Model of 1955. The details of these are best learned by observation.

There are also varying forms of rollmarks on the frames, and the distinctions that can be drawn often allow one to make a fairly accurate guess at a year (or short range of years) of manufacture. Again, there is a bunch of illustrative material in the forum archives.

For .38/44s, check out the website that 1Aspenhill maintains for the Heavy Duty; the link is in the signature to every one of his posts. There is no similar web site for the .38/44 Outdoorsman, which is the adjustable sight version of the Heavy Duty, but lots of people on this forum love that model and you can get good info just by asking a question.

The Outdoorsman is almost always found with a 6.5" barrel. In the prewar years, a few were made with five-inch barrels and gold bead front sights as special orders for famed sharpshooter Ed McGivern. A very few special orders are reported with longer barrels. I don't know of a single Outdoorsman that was ever delivered from the factory with a barrel shorter than five inches, but some here may know of specimens.

Afterthought: I don't know how familiar you are with the entire S&W line, but don't confuse the .38/44 Outdoorsman (which is built on the company's large N frame) with the K-22 Outdoorsman (which is built on the mid-size K-frame). At the time these models were introduced in the early 1930s, each was intended to be a premium target revolver, and each was built on the next larger frame size compared to the .22s and .38s that had been produced previously.

[bmg60]

Hi
before you spend 50 dollars for a letter call the factory and ask for roy jinks If you give him the serial number he will be able to tell you if it is a Transition 357 or a 38/44 Outdoorsman.
My guess is it is a Outdoorsman cut down.
the outdoorsman and the 357 Transition are all in the 71xxx range.
And I am the keeper of the Data base of the 357 Transition guns.
Jim Fisher

[ACK95]

Originally Posted by 1Aspenhill

Are there any markings on the grip frame?
Bill

Yes I took the grips off at a local gunsmith earlier this evening and had him look it over, and he is fairly puzzled, said it is a very unique piece.

Under the grips there are a couple letters and numbers.

On the left side, towards the bottom front of the grip area there is an "S"

On the right side down at the bottom where the dowel pin is, just in front of it is the letter "B", then in front if it on the other side of the spring is the number "7", and directly below the pin on the right side is a very small number "6".

That is all that is under the grips on the frame.

Thanks

[ACK95]

Originally Posted by bmg60

Hi
before you spend 50 dollars for a letter call the factory and ask for roy jinks If you give him the serial number he will be able to tell you if it is a Transition 357 or a 38/44 Outdoorsman.
My guess is it is a Outdoorsman cut down.
the outdoorsman and the 357 Transition are all in the 71xxx range.
And I am the keeper of the Data base of the 357 Transition guns.
Jim Fisher

Thank you for that advice Jim. I will be certain to ask for Roy. I greatly appreciate that information,

[ACK95]

Thank you also DCWilson. I will look at that website as well. I am really enjoying my research, and am learning a lot from all of the responses I am getting.

Great great stuff.

Thanks
Tony

[slumpy]

Be for warned, it does get pretty addictive, the hunt, research and all that comes with collecting these fine firearms.

[DGNY]

A belated welcome to you.... And concurrence that this is indeed a desirable and attractive piece. It mimics the general look of the later, and highly admired, Model of 1950 .357 Magnum. Yet it has, apparently, a history of considerable ingenuity in its journey to this present state.

We look forward to your completing the info loop back to this forum when you can glean further details from the source.

As always, should you decide to shoot it, we appreciate range reports. If the gun is tight and the .357 chambering confirmed and cleanly done, I would personally not shrink from present day, ordinary .357 loads [others will clearly differ on that!],

Regards, and thanks for sharing,

Dyson