38 special ctg.

[rlm-88]

i have a 38 special with serial number 280xxx and it has a 6in.
barrel with last pat,d date of sept,14,09.on top of barrel.
it also has the number of 2606 on frame behind cylinder&it
looks like to me to be a letter b in front of this number.
the underside of barrel&the butt of gun also has the 280xxx
number stamped into it. i would like to find out the year&
model this.
i made a mistake and correcting it the letter b is on bottom of barrel before serial
number 280xxx.i would also like to add that this has no trade mark on
the sides of this,and it does not have made in the usa stamped anywhere.

[Goony]

That sounds like a Military & Police (Model of 1905, 4th Change) which probably shipped in 1916-17. The number in the frame recess was a reference number used for identifying components during manufacture and has no significance beyond that purpose.

Posting a photo here would likely elicit more definitive comment and information regarding your revolver.

[rlm-88]

thanks for the info, i am trying to figure out how to upload
photos but not having much luck.

[rlm-88]

i have this 38 special with serial number 280xxx and no
letters,the last pat,d date on top of barrel is sept.14,09
i was advised of it being a 1905 model,shipped somewhere
around 1916-1917,any other info.will be greatly appreciated.

[rlm-88]

sorry for only 1 photo.

[rlm-88]

sorry for photo problem,it seems like i am becoming a problem.

[Goony]

Originally Posted by rlm-88

sorry for photo problem,it seems like i am becoming a problem.

Don't sweat it. We all have had to feel our way through in the beginning. It might be that your photo files are a bit on the large side and that's why some may not upload, or that you are being limited in how many you can put up at once.

As to your gun, my initial stab at what it is stands. It doesn't look pristine, but does seem to be an honest, original piece. I hope to look that good when I'm approaching my 100th birthday!

If you (carefully) take off the stocks, you may be able to still see the guns serial number written in pencil on inside of the right hand side panel. It's worth verifying that the stocks are "matching" but not at the expense of boogering up the screw or damaging the stocks in any way, so if you're not experienced in taking them off, let it be.

[rlm-88]

i have taken the stocks off this gun i bet 7-8 times and
i can not see any numbers stamped or written on them.
there is some initials scratched on the right stock.

[Az Rick]

She's a beaut!

Best, Rick

[DCWilson]

Goony pretty much called it on the date, but to add a minor refinement I would vote for 1917, maybe later in the year, or possibly early 1919. In late 1917 the S&W factory was given over to manufacture of the US Army model 1917, and the factory continued producing that model most of the way through 1918. During that time S&W products had no company logo on them. Finally production of commercial models resumed, but for several months the guns continued to have no company logos.

In any event, your revolver was manufactured around the time of US involvement in WWI.

One interesting sidelight is the last patent date on the barrel of your revolver. By the time your gun was made, it had engineering features covered by a patent granted in 1914 and recorded on the barrels of most such specimens. Possibly your gun was assembled using an older barrel that had been produced before 1915 but not installed on a frame until a few years later.

[Goony]

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Goony pretty much called it on the date, but to add a minor refinement I would vote for 1917, maybe later in the year, or possibly early 1919....During that time S&W products had no company logo on them. Finally production of commercial models resumed, but for several months the guns continued to have no company logos.

Just to advise as to the basis for my estimate, I know of one of these at about the 250000 mark that shipped in June 1916, and while we know that in this era guns didn't necessarily go out the door in numerical sequence, I was thinking one just 30K ahead in its serial number most likely was finished before the switchover to military production in late 1917. I hadn't noticed the missing logo, though, so I take your point. Plus, in considering it further, I think my calculation of an earlier date assumes a greater monthly output of M&P's than was likely the case in that period.

[rlm-88]

i was doing some reading on the 1905"s and was wondering
about my grips having the medallions.i have seen in other
articles that my revolver should not have the medallions.

[Muley Gil]

"i have seen in other
articles that my revolver should not have the medallions."

The medallions are correct for that production period of time.

[dfayad]

What does the CTG mean?

[rlm-88]

the ctg on this stands for cartridge.

[handejector]

I would have to vote post-war also. 1919-21.
I've never seen pre-war guns lack the logo.
Think about it- all the 455's had logos thru late 1916. The factory then slid into R&D and production of the 1917. After 1917 production began, I doubt that little of anything else was produced with the Gov't riding their backs. In 1917-18, they were also adding a building to the factory.

[JP@AK]

I have to completely agree with Lee's reasoning. The lack of the S&W monogram argues for post-1917 production, despite the issue of the older patent date on the barrel.
Also, concerning the stocks, the medallion went away in about 1920 and during that decade stocks had no medallion and the stock circle was convex in shape. The recessed medallions on your stocks are correct for a gun made in the teens.
JP

[Alk8944]

Interesting about the patent dates on your gun, mine, with SN 2751** has the 1914 date on it and yours is only a little later.

From numbers and dates I have been collecting over the years both of our guns fall between 297*** that shipped 5-14-1919 and 2571** that shipped in August 1915. More guns shipped during 1918-1919 than 1915-1917, but assuming an even production/shippind rate during the 45 months between the noted shipping dates = ca. 39,900 guns divided by 45 months = ca. 886 guns per month produced. Between yours and the end of this block of guns is ca. 17,000 guns/886 per month = ca. 19 months before May 1919, or an estimated shipping date no earlier than October 1917. So probably sometime in the first half of the date range from October 1917 to May 1919, which is October 1917 to September 1918, and most likely Summer 1918.

Even though averaging doesn't really work well, eapecially close to WWI production, but still mid 1918 will be very close for your SN. This is the appropriate date range for the gold medallion stocks and the missing S&W logo. Mine does have the logo and was somewhere in the early 1918 time frame also.

Hope this is helpful.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

From numbers and dates I have been collecting over the years both of our guns fall between 297*** that shipped 5-14-1919 and 2571** that shipped in August 1915. More guns shipped during 1918-1919 than 1915-1917, but assuming an even production/shippind rate during the 45 months between the noted shipping dates = ca. 39,900 guns divided by 45 months = ca. 886 guns per month produced.

I'm afraid you wasted your time because you simply can't interpolate like that.
You have to look at the whole picture.
The 455 order was the largest the company had had in decades. That, coupled with a natural sympathy for England in WW I, led the company to focus on the Brit order from the putbreak of war in the summer of 14 till the order completed in late 16.
Then, they were expecting the US to enter the war, so they were putting much effort into the 1917 development. The US entered the War in Apr, 1917. After that, I'm sure 38 M&P's were low priority. Once production of the 1917's began, nothing else mattered. The Gov't was never satisfied with production, so it is very unlikely many, IF any, 38 M&P's were being produced during 1917 production. The production in 1918 was higher than it had ever been, and the Gov't was still not satisfied. The Russian revolution of late 1917 relieved Germany on the eastern front, increasing pressure on the Allies, and therefore on Allied contractors! I'm fairly certain seizure of the plant had been threatened before it finally occured in Sept, 18. Control was not returned until Jan, 1919.

Summary time line:
>Summer, 1914 to Late 1916- Urgent production of 455's.
>1916-1917- Company working with Springfield Armory to develop the Mod 1917.
>Mar, 1917-18- Factory is adding a building to increase production.
>Apr, 17- US enters the War, but it is Sept before 1917's are shipping!
>Oct, 17- Russia falls. No more eastern front.
>Sept, 18- Gov't seizes the palnt.
Jan, 19- S&W regains control of the plant.

I think it is safe to say that there are many months between the summer of 14 and the beginning of 1919 when no 38 M&P's were produced.
It is also safe to say that by 1919, S&W had attained the ability to make more guns faster than they had ever had!
After regaining control in 1919, I think they focused on getting set up once again for commercial production. Several corners were cut to accomplish this:
Slightly duller polishing.
No worry about frame logos.
Dropping grip medallions.

[Alk8944]

Lee,

There are several points you have to agree with.

First, all revolvers were manufactured/put up in serial number order.

Second, S&W did not record assembly dates, just shipping dates.

Third, if SN 250,000 shipped on 6-1-1916, then every revolver with a lower SN had been assembled no later than that date. When the older number actually shipped is irrelevant it could have been either before or after 250,000.

Fourth, if 200,000 shipped on 1-1-1916, and 250,000 shipped on 6-1-1916, then 225,000 could not have been assembled later than 6-1-1916, and was definately between 200,000 and 250,000. While all 3 could have been assembled in 1914 or 1915 the great liklihood is they were not, but were assembled far closer to their aassembly date.

Fifth, while there are cases where revolvers were shipped years out of sequence, this is more frequent with less common models like the 3rd Model Double Action, but infrequent with popular models like the M&P. Of 24 M&P SNs I have dated there is only one case where two close numbers shipped farther apart than would have been expected, but still in-sequence. I realize this is not a significant sample, but still shows a tendency.

You will notice that I used the word "Probably"! I still stand behind my conclusions that the OP's revolver shipped in mid 1918. Using a finite sample which extends over a relatively short period of time wlii yield relative accurate results. If I had attempted to interpolate the total production of 1905 4th Change from 1915 to 1940 you would have been correct, but we were dealing with fewer than 40,000 guns over 45 months where the start and end were definitely defined by a documented shipping date. The high limit shipped on 5-14-1919. OPs SN was ca. 17,000 numbers before the ending SN of that sample. It HAD TO have been assembled at some date before 5-14-1919, there is no way around this. It was probably assembled sometime around the middle of the date range, possibly somewhat later because of production being skewed toward 1919 because of war production.

OP asked when his gun was manufactured, not shipped. You can rationalize an approximate time period that could vary by several months. You are right that the gun could have shipped in 1920 or 1921, but probably not. It was definitely manufactured before 5-14-1919 when the revolver with a SN of 197xxx shipped, or another, SN 293xxx, that shipped on 3-26-1919, which even farther narrows the date range. Again, COULD it have shipped in 1920-1921? Yes, COULD it have been assembled in 1920 or 1921? Absolutely not.

You are depending far too much on the old saw that S&W did not ship in SN order. But that does not alter the fact that when a shipping date for a particular gun is known that every lower number had to have been put up no later than that date. With sufficient reference points a fairly close estimate of a date range for a specific earlier number can be determined.

There is a small exception to this. It all depends on the point where frames were numbered. A batch of frames could be placed in storage for future production after being numbered. They may not have been pulled in strict number sequence, and there could have been times when an earlier number was put up as much as a few weeks after the subsequent number, but to believe this could have, at times, spanned years begs credulity.