A lot of old British Webleys are marked .450 / .455 - does this mean they will fire both rounds ? If so it be safe for my S&W Mk2 in .455 to fire them ? They seem to chamber OK and the main difference seems to be the OAL of the case.

Thanks

Mike

According to Barnes book, "Cartridges of the World", The 450 Revolver cartridge can be fired in any 455 Webley revolver and was used as a light target round in the 455 revolvers.

The cartridge is 1/4" shorter than the standard 455, but as long as the rim thickness allows the 455 cylinder to rotate without binding, you should be good to go.

You may want to check to see if the .450 Revolver (or .450 Adams) cartridges you have are worth more as collectables than as light practice ammunition.

Also, per Cartridges of the World, the .450 Revolver (or .450 Adams) was originally a black powder cartridge, although it was later loaded with smokeless and was in production in America until about 1940 (also from Cartridges of the World). If you do shoot them, you may want to verify that they are not loaded with black powder, if for no other reason than the messy clean up.

While I am no black powder expert, I understand another problem can be that black powder is unstable, especially if it is going on 100 years old. You may want to seek the advice of a real expert on this if they are indeed loaded with black powder.

If nothing else, being in all likelyhood loaded before 1940, they probably have corrosive primers. There again, your revolver will need an immediate and thorough cleaning after firing these.

It's not worth all the trouble, IMHO.

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You're shy a few manners.

A better question: will it fire .476? That's a more useful load, I think using a 280 grain bullet at 700 FPS. That's against 265 grains at about 620FPS for .455.

Probably the best load was .455 Colt, loaded in the MK I case, for 700 FPS with 265 grains. You could use that, if they still made it!

I like to fantasize about the ammo I'd use if I was a British officer then or an explorer/hunter.

I think Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson would be undergunned with their .450 revolvers when hunting the Hound of the Baskervilles...

if you are referring to Fiocchi .450 Corto I've heard reports some of it has been rather warm.

Warm for the old 450 revolvers of the 1800s, but no problem in a Webley, Colt or S&W 455.

Peter

Not a good idea Texas Star. Neither the cylinder mouth nor the bore are sized for the bigger bullet! Without checking I do not know if the 476 would even chamber.

The spec you quote for the so-called 455 Colt is of course that of the 455 Mk I. When the Mk II was introduced the velocity was dropped to 600 fps, I guess for pressure reasons with cordite?

Peter

Even if it chambered, not sure I would want to shoot a .472" bullet through a .455 bore??

Hmmm...I'm almost sure that some Webleys were sold as marked for both .455 and .476.

Anyone else recall that?

I know that Colt chambered/marked for only one cartridge. And they offered .450, .455, and 476 chamberings.

According to Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition by Frank Barnes, the .476 Eley (also known as the .476 Enfield MK II) was also known as the .455/.476 and used the same bullet and case dimensions as the .455 MK I, except that the MK I case is .05mm shorter than the .476.

The book does state that the bullet may be a bit large for .455 Colts and S&Ws.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thanks for all the replies guys !!!

Which all goes to show that Barnes knew very little about British revolver cartridges. Still, anyone who rated every cartridge on its potential for hunting, including the 2,7mm Kolibri Auto, has to have creditability issues!

Peter

Peter-

You probably know the most of any of us here. What are the facts about those Webleys marked for both .455 and .476 ammo?

What popularity did the .476 have after the old Enfield .476 was dropped from service?

Was the WG made in .476?

Thanks.

Was your question just curiosity? There are inexpensive and easy to obtain case options to the 455 cartridges if you reload.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Reading Barnes summary of these cartridges left me incredibly confused.

I assumed that over the years the Brits changed their designations for cartridges much like happened in the US when the transition from outside-lubricated "heel base" bullet to the inside-lubricated bullets we are familiar with today. (Which is why we call a .429" diameter bullet a ".44", a .357" a ".38", etc.) I have assumed that something along the same lines occured in England.

Perhaps Mr. Barnes was just as confused as I am?

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You're shy a few manners.

FWIW Wikipedia, and my moldy memory, indicate that the cartridges called ".450", ".455", and ".476", all use .455" diamater bullets and .476" diamater cases.
Why and how they were named as they were I can only imagine. Perhaps some manufacturers didn't want to put a competitor's name on their guns; perhaps somebody hoped to influence people to buy the "new" cartridge.

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and what his trumpet saith

I believe the idea was to be able to use available ammo in far parts of their empire.

I will put an answer together TS, but am a bit overloaded at present!

Peter

Hey, Mike - Just to satisfy my curiosity, would you be so kind as to let us know what the headstamp is on these .450 Eley cartridges?

I am wondering if they are military or commercial, year of manufacture, etc. That information can (sometimes anyways) be deciphered from the headstamp.

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You're shy a few manners.

Good article on Cartridge Collectors website. Author tries to unravel the confusion over 455/476 British cartridges. Interesting read - introto455

I asked the question as I was confused when you see calibers as .450/.455 and .455/.476 etc - but the replies have clarified all that !!

The cases are marked .450 Eley London - no date or clue as to military / civilian etc

No date among other things means it's commercial ammo.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Mike!

See the third cartridge down (.450 Mark III) in this link:
.450 Adams

I'll bet that if you have the box to go with the cartridges, you could easily sell the lot for enough to buy several boxes of Fiocchi .455 Webley Mark II. This may still be true even if you don't have the box.

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You're shy a few manners.

Yep, they are definately MKIII's