Lend lease, USNCPC Help Needed

Biginge · Sep 1, 2012

Boys,

Had some mad money from recent Star Reloader sale so I hit the favorite pawn eporium this morning. Please pardon pics as it is raining here and lens fogging up. Anyway, serial # is 756399 and there is no V. All the #'s match, butt, cylinder face, bbl. flat and grips. It is marked on backstrap USNCPC (United States Navy Civilian Protection Corp. or something similar I believe). Additonally, it is overstamped on the left side of the bbl. with four tons per (square symbol)". Additionally, it is overstamped on the left side of bbl. 38 Special 1.150 and I symbol I can't make out.Crown over BNP appears on frame forward of cylinder, Bbl. On left side, just above rear juncture of trigger guard to frame is an X. The top two legs of the X are crossed with a line to form little x on top. Reading west (inside of big X is a 1), bottom or South in big X is a #2, and East, or right side of big X is a #5. Bbl is marked on right side .38 S&W Special Ctg. With a lazy ampersand. Gun is blue and I assume pressed into wartime service by the USN. The Lend Lease and Navy markings combined are new to me. Any info on this will be greatly appreciated. Date of Mfg?

Regards

Bill

murphydog · Sep 1, 2012

Best guess is this is one of the 3000 USN Civilian (Police) Corps guns from 1941 (perhaps early 1942) that was first diverted to Britain, then proof-stamped when surplused out after the war.

DCWilson · Sep 1, 2012

I believe the USN/CPC guns were .38 Special/four-inch models from the get-go and were intended for North American service. A very few are known with British proof markings, indicating that they somehow got into British service before eventual release to the civilian commercial market, but I don't think they were chambered for .38/200.

This one is confusing to me, and I hope some of the Victory experts step up to discuss it.

Texas Star · Sep 1, 2012

The UK usually marked .38 Special guns with a red band of paint on the bbl. to denote that they were NOT .38-200's. This one may never have been issued to Home Guard or SOE personnel, the likely users of such guns.

It had to have the proofs added for sale after the war.

Biginge · Sep 1, 2012

DC,

The British proofs,etc. Are a tad mysterious to me also. If I,m not far off base I believe the X just above rear of triggerguard, with 125 in the legs of the X are indicative of. British service. I believe this is more a service indicator than the tonnage ratings, etc. There is no US military marks (ordnance bomb, GHD, etc) just the USNCPC on backstrap. Hope someone can help.

Regards

Bill

Waidmann · Sep 1, 2012

The U.S. Navy Civilian Police Corps is an idea that failed to get traction. Begining in 1940 the U.S. Navy was raided for a great number of handguns including 1899s, 1902s, 1917s and the above as well. BNP indicates it entered commerce under the 1955 proof law. The X by the triggerguard is the viewers mark (crossed scepters) from the Birmingham proofhouse. Supply the surrounding letters/number/dots and I can tell you when it passed proof.

Murphydog is correct on the numbers. My thought is when the USNCPC idea was stillborn getting rid of the things was on somebody's to do list.

Biginge · Sep 1, 2012

Waldmann,

Thanks. The numbers in the X are a 1 on the left, a 2 at the bottom, and a 5 on the right. The top "legs"of the X are crossed with a slash. Is that the numbers you are referring to?

Regards

Bill

Waidmann · Sep 2, 2012

Bill,
If the 1 is a worn J and the 5 a worn B then it was inspected by a 2nd grade inspector in 1958. I apologize for not reading the detail in the OP. Your gun is desirable among the WWII era gang, we'd love to see some pics as well.

Bill (Waidmann)

Biginge · Sep 3, 2012

More info

Waidmann,

First, "thanks" for your help. I tried to take some closeups, and will blow them up but it sure looks like a 1,2, and a 5 to me. Pics did not come out well, will try a few more later when light is better. Let me know, please, what you think.

Added a coupla that are a little better. Also the back of the extractor star numbers. I believe this one to be 100% original as manufactured. With the exception of missing lanyard loop.

Regards

Bill

Biginge · Sep 3, 2012

Waidmann,

Borrowed a buddys 100x microscope. I am almost certain that the numbers (reading for left, or due West, to bottom, South, up to East or right in the quadrants of the X ) are left 1, bottom 2, East 3. The 3, perhaps could have been an 8 at one time but I really think it is a 3. Man, this is kinda like Windtalkers and code, which I guess, is precisely what it is. Thank you in advance for your offer to chase it for me.

Regards

Bill

opoefc · Sep 4, 2012

About 1/2 doz. of these USNCPC ( U.S.Navy Civilian Police Corp.) are known with British proofs. All the USNCPC guns were originally in .38 Special caliber, however the ones with British proofs are bored out to accept the 38/200 ( .38S&W) cartridge. It is thought that originally 3,000 guns were ordered by the Navy in early 1941, and all were delivered to the Washington, DC. Navy Yard. The idea of a civilian security unit for Naval bases did not get funding from Congress, so the guns were disbursed to other entities, some civilian ( Bethehem Steel got a shipment of 36 guns) and some the Brits got. There were 10 shipments from S&W to the Navy, recorded as 300 guns each, however the 11th shipment records 350 guns, so apparently total USNCPC guns maybe 3350 guns. The data base for these guns is posted on the private S&WCA members site. Ed.

Biginge · Sep 4, 2012

opoefc,

Thanks for the information. If there are only six known then I guess I have #7. I will add some more pics here that clearly show the British Proofs. Additionally, and I think you can see, the Bbl. is overstamped ".38 Special" along with the tonnage proof per sq. In. , etc. This is on the left and clashes with the Smith & Wesson Roll marking on left of Bbl. Any and all info is appreciated.

Thanks and Regards

Bill

Waidmann · Sep 4, 2012

.38 Specials converted .38-200 are marked 38/380 or X380. This particular gun appears to lack them and proofed as a .38 Special. As for the viewer's mark I have to hang with J (1958) and B (Birmingham) until some other option appears. After a detailed re-read of Pate's book, there appears to be little specific info available, a few to the Hudson car Plant, some to Bethlehem Steel(total of 45, one stolen) some instructions not to comingle them with other .38s. Page 103 of the book has a photo of your guns twin, including proofs and still .38 Special. The text indicates it has a RAF mark (not apparent).

My gut feeling is the entire episode proved an embarassment to the tune of $20.68 X 3,000 and since so few are encountered I suppose they were not released to civilian users in great numbers. Since the Navy was previously raided for .38 Specials and .45 ACP guns the ammo was in the British system. And, we know of one that went to the RAF.

It is an odd and rare footnote in the firearms history of WWII, enjoy!

Bill

Biginge · Sep 4, 2012

Thanks Bill,

It will not chamber a 38 S & W but easily chambers a 38 S & W Special. This lends credence to British proofing of caliber. Very interesting in OP that only a half dozen with British proofs are known to exist. I would like to see the data base of SWCA but it is not available to me. Appreciate all your efforts.

Regards

Bill

opoefc · Sep 5, 2012

Bill, This apparently in one of a very few USNCPC guns the Brits got that didn't get converted to .38S&W. That leads me to conjecture that the gun was left as shipped in .38 Special until after the War when it was sold as surplus to a British gun dealer. Then it had to be proofed before it could be sold commercially in Britain, and as it was in .38Special caliber, it got proofed as such. S&Ws arriving in Britain as lend lease guns were not proofed by the Brits as long as they stayed in military possession.
Charlie Pate's note in his book that one gun went to the RAF (based on an observed stamping if the letters 'RAF") was an error. Charlie later told me that he came across further info. as to what the stamping indicated, and it was not the Royal Air Force ( RAF), but that was after the book went to press. Ed.

Biginge · Sep 5, 2012

Ed and Bill,

Thank you for all the good data. Not a bad Saturday at the pawn shop for this writer.

Regards

Bill

Waidmann · Sep 5, 2012

Ed and (other) Bill,
If there is information other than Pate, SCSW, and a few footnotes based on them, I'd love to read it. I agree property marked firearms were not submitted to military proof and anything entering commerce was subject to civil proof, and the civil side did not recognize the military. Although long arms built in Birmingham may have a BM proof applied by the proofhouse.
1940-41 was a period of great turbulence for Fortress Britain. They bought everything they could get their hands on to include Colt's SAA. They undertook to arm all their policemen and there was the Home Guard as well. Literally anything and everything happened.

I own a Colt's Police Positive which was originally .38 Special. It went through Arsenal acceptance and proof including re-chambering. It is marked with the crossed flags/380 (very crowded on that small frame). The bore was not enlarged. According to Pate's book it was one of a purchase of 200 (there were others). It has no civil proofs (odd perhaps, yet common enough).

A cross section of those many handguns eventually made their way home, in fact they are still coming. Given the shear numbers I opine most did not. I suspect many are quietly sleeping in their graves off the English coast or were smelted by post war industry. My guess.

Again any information on the subject is always appreciated.

Bill

opoefc · Sep 5, 2012

Bill, Join the S&WCA and get copies of the past issues of the "Journal" and the newsletters prior to the Journal publishing. There's ton of info. in that material. Other sources of info. to read and research is in the files of the Imperial War Museum in London,England. I have spent hours there researching and interviewing the very knowledgable staff. Mr. David Penn, Curator of Exhibits ( now retired) is an honorary member of the S&WCA and was a great asset in accessing the material and educating me on the various stampings, markings, etc on S&Ws that served in Britain, both in WW1 and WW2. Ed.

ordnanceguy · Sep 6, 2012

Biginge:

Your revolver likely shipped from the factory in the March-May, 1941 time frame, based on the information we have in the Victory Model Database which my pal LWCmdr45 and I maintain.

As to the post-war British civilian proofmarks I would say that they are not too unusual on these guns. We show about 150 of the USNCPC marked guns in the Database. Of those guns 8 are recorded as having the post-war British civilian proofmarks. Your revolver makes 9.

Biginge · Sep 6, 2012

Thanks Charlie. Kinda special having 1 of only 9 of anything. Appreciate all the info from each of you guys.

Regards

Bill

Lend lease, USNCPC Help Needed

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Attachments

Moderator

Member

US Veteran

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Member

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Member

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Attachments

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

US Veteran

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Attachments

Member

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

US Veteran

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Member

US Veteran

Member

SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Similar threads