Since the 1970's, the collectors nomenclature for these two early K-frames has
generally resulted in both models taking the name of Model of 1905. This has resulted
in a near-disappearance of referring to the round-butt guns as Model of 1902.

One of the reasons for this, but not the only reason, is the notion that, other than the
butt configuration, the guns are otherwise identical. The early catalogs, in fact,
make this point.

These next three pictures are from the 1913-1915 Three Pirates S&W Catalog, named
for the cover of the catalog. In this catalog, as ite has been since 1905, the two guns
are designated at different models. That is, each has a separate page and discussion.
By 1919, the next catalog I have, the 1902 & 1905 designations have been
changed, to simply Round Butt and Square Butt.







The D-3 catalog, however, discloses vital statistics about these two models. These next
pages are from the D-3 catalog.



If one looks closely, they will see that there are siginificant differences between the two models.
Check out the overall lengths of the guns, and their weights. They are different. Also, the round
butt model is no longer being offered with adjustable sights.

It seems clear, from these descriptions, that the guns really are two different models,
and that the proper name for the round-butt model is either the Model of 1902, or
the round-butt Military and Police.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I would assume that the square butt would measure longer and weigh more that the round butt based on the long tail of the stock frame and more metal??

Here is another conundrum. How would you classify the 32-20 caliber M&P? Same era, both round and square butt configuration, so would the round butt 32-20 Model 1905 actually be a Model 1902 throughout their production? Catalog D-3 only shows the square butt 32-20, nor is the round butt is found on the D-3 price list.

Attached Images

S&W Catalog D-3.jpg (134.1 KB, 52 views)

Glowe

In the earlier years, both the 1902 and 1905 were cataloged as being chambered for
either cartridge - the 38 Special or the 32 WCF . As late as the Three Pirates Catalog,
it was still being marketed that way. By the time of the D-3 catalog, the 32 WCF
has its own page, meaning that it is its own model. Since the round butt 32 WCF is
no longer being offered, they've changed the name to "Military and Police 32/20
Winchester Square Butt" .

In the earlier years, the caliber was not a part of the name of the model, since it
was considered an option, as different barrel lenghts were an option. The S&WCA
collectors do have their own naming scheme for all of this !

Regards, Mike

Mike,

So when did D-3 come out then, 1916?

Regards, Jesse

__________________
"Suum Cuique"

Some of the difference is just rnd. butt vs. sq. butt. Someone may have mismeasured a gun if those figures don't jive otherwise. Because the round butt curves in at the bottom, it will measure shorter than one might expect.

The rest is just markerting jive. This was one basic gun, offered in either .38 Special, or in .32-20.

But I was glad to see those old catalogs. Did Howard Pyle do the ill. of the pirates, or is the art not signed? I saw books about Robin Hood and Treasure Island that he illustrated, and wonder if this catalog was his work, too.

Thanks,

T-Star

Look at the description of the sights in your photo. They refer to a "Partridge" front sight, not the correct spelling as "Patridge", after the man who designed it. The factory was clearly capable of errors in print.

So when did D-3 come out then, 1916?

Jessie - My D-3 catalog has a price list dated March 1, 1923.

Attached Images

	Retail Prices Page 2 1923.jpg (76.8 KB, 32 views)
	Retail Prices Page 1 1923.jpg (74.3 KB, 23 views)

Texas Star - Maybe that is why some people call ruffed grouse a patridge??

No, it is a Massachusetts enunciation of partridge.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Probably to much reliance on the spell check function.

I know that ruffed (and other US) grouse are called partridges, but am not sure they are true partidges, like the Spanish perdiz (Red-legged Partridge), the chukar partridge, or the Hungarian partridge stocked in some US locales, as with the Asiatic chukar.

Do any of you know for sure?

I thought the primary difference between the m1902 and the m1905, was that of the Screw occuring in the front of the Trigger Bow.

A year or so ago, I almost bought a long Barrel, Round Butt, Factory Target 'M&P' with Black Hard Rubber Stocks, which was made in 1938...I wish I had, I would have, but I thought about it a minute and someone else grabbed it.

But, clearly, the Round Butt ( with Black Hard Rubber Stocks ) was available in Target versions at leat up to WWII, whether offered any longer in the Catalogues as such, or not.