Pre 36 flat latch Chief Special help

[OldSarge21]

I have a pre model 36 flat latch, 5 screw Chief Special that I would like some help from the experts to identify the proper stocks for. The round butt stocks that came on it do not number to the gun and are newer model stocks, but they do fit. My j frame combats seem a little big by the trigger guard area and the cut out seems too long. I don’t want to shoot it with the combats even though they feel great because I don’t want to damage them.

Can someone post pics of the proper stocks?
Does my gun have the small trigger guard or short grip frame?
Will it damage my combat stocks to shoot with them on this gun?
When was this revolver made, ser # 29619?
What does the cross on the grip frame signify?

Any other info regarding this model is welcome. Thanks.

[tlawler]

I think, but not absolutely sure, it should have the diamond magnas like this. S/N puts it in 1954. Last #of 1953 was 28916 and first # of 1955 was 55050 according to SCSW4. Hope this helps. Mine is a 1955 at 587xx.

[OldSarge21]

Thanks for the reply and info. Your revolver is sweet. Nice engraving.

[tlawler]

Originally Posted by OldSarge21

Thanks for the reply and info. Your revolver is sweet. Nice engraving.

Thanks! I actually put those magnas on while I was waiting for a set of stags. They are back on another later Chiefs I have. Here is what a forum member posted about mine, and should pertain to yours:

“It is officially described as the ".38 Chiefs Special Early J Frame Model of 1953 ". Characteristics include the earlier Baby J hammer, 4 screw sideplate ( no trigger guard screw), the then new trigger guard shape, and the serrated ramp front sight.”

[Hondo44]

You have the original J frame Model of 1950 often called the Baby J; small trigger guard and 1/8" shorter grip frame from the Pre model 36 introduced in 1953.

Yours is the 2nd version Baby Chief with ramp front sight and barrel rib; the 1st version having a round sight.

From my database of shipping dates, your #29619 most likely shipped in June of 1953. But shipments were not in serial # order so it could vary.

tlawler above is correct about the grips it should have. Remember to look for pre model of 1953 Baby J and I frame grips, they're the same size. After 1953 the J and I frame grips are both 1/8" longer. You can trim the butt to fit however.

Don't worry about shooting your gun with the combats, I've done it for years and never broke the grips nor have I ever heard of anyone else's breaking. They're made for the 1953 1/8" longer grips and why you see the gap at the butt and trigger guard, but they will endure just fine.

The iron cross on the grip frame is new to me. I have not ever seen it on a S&W, and I've seen thousands! It's not a factory stamp.

Enjoy that .38 Chiefs Special!

[two-bit cowboy]

I believe yours likely shipped in '53.

I have 30375, which shipped in July '53, and 380XX shipped in November that year.

Yes, your Baby Chiefs Special has the round trigger guard and the short grip frame. Here's a photo of one of my '53s with the numbers-matching grips.

I don't have knowledge of the "cross" on your grip frame, and although they don't fit tight due to the gun's shorter grip frame, I can't image it would damage your Combats to shoot the gun with them on it.

[OldSarge21]

Thank you gents for the info so far. Now I’m really curious where the cross stamp came from. Interesting.

[model3sw]

Old Sarge, is the top side of the front sight serrated or smooth ? I have several having serrated, top side of the front sights but only 1 with the smooth front sight. Sal Raimondi

[Hondo44]

Sal,

The highest # I know of with smooth sight is 12340. But one never knows...........

[OldSarge21]

The front sight is serrated.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Sal,

The highest # I know of with smooth sight is 12340. But one never knows...........

I have 9825 with a smooth front ramp, and 15386 serrated front ramp, and have been watching for smooth ramps, however, I had been advised somewhere back when, there was no real cut off number for the smooth ramp to the serrated ramp, some said to be found in higher SN ranges so I keep a watch.

And I saw this, in an enlargement of the OPs photo

[Green Frog]

So you want a Baby Chief you can carry, perhaps concealed, and shoot a lot to get competent and comfortable with it? You’ve gotten the best one ever made!! It’s got the latest,easiest to see sights, has enough wear to not worry about collectibility, and the flat latch that lays out of the way until needed. SCORE!

As others have said, I-frame grips are the same length as the BC grip frame and you can use cut-down J-frame grip plates or the target or combat type grips that completely enclose the grip frame, either with perfect satisfaction. For best concealment, the simplest scale-type grips show up the least, and for maximum accuracy you will probably do better with the combats you already have... either way, you have a winner.

Congratulations and enjoy your Baby. Just remember, don’t try to put her “in a corner,”

Froggie

PS If the gaps inside those combats really bother you, a little glass bedding would fill them nicely. Just remember to do one side at a time and use lots of release agent.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by model3sw

I have 9825 with a smooth front ramp, and 15386 serrated front ramp, and have been watching for smooth ramps, however, I had been advised somewhere back when, there was no real cut off number for the smooth ramp to the serrated ramp, some said to be found in higher SN ranges so I keep a watch.

And I saw this, in an enlargement of the OPs photo

Yes, a long transition of all three sights:

6541…..earliest known serrated ramp, and 116XX….latest reported round sight.

[OldSarge21]

I’ve shot it quite a bit with the Magna scales. It is actually very accurate and shoots to POA with 158 lead rn. Easy to conceal either in pocket holster or strong side IWB. Thanks for all the input. I think I will give the combats a try since now I understand they won’t get damaged by recoil because of the gaps. I didn’t pay much for it because of the wear and wrong stocks so now I will just enjoy shooting it.

[les.b]

Hey, Sarge.. Once you find the correct early magna grips, you might want to try a Tyler T Grip. The correct size is the number 2. Here is my smooth ramp Baby Chief with a Tyler installed. Makes for a great improvement in handling, at least for me. (Disregard the top gun...she sneaked into the picture to show off her fancy carved holster!!).



Best Regards, Les

[Hondo44]

I like them both but the holster even more!

Is that an El Paso made holster?

[Hondo44]

A few more milestones:

BABY CHIEFS Oct 27, 1950 Introduction - Transition Periods
1 to ~117…..standard thumb piece, followed by 1st style flat latch, round sight
292X……earliest observed smooth ramp shipped in February '52
6541…..earliest reported serrated ramp July 1952
116XX…..latest reported round sight, shipped 4/52, albeit a much higher # than most
12340…..highest reported smooth ramp c. May 1952
21342....Very Rare earliest square butt introduction 1952, still with small round trigger guard
251XX…..Baby J serrated ramp sight, and earliest 2nd style flat latch
290XX…..Earliest reported square-butt Chiefs Special Airweight with bug screw, alloy-cylinder, June 24, 1953
45962…..Rare 3 inch Barrel length
45963.....highest reported Baby J, Feb 1954 (which would have a serrated ramp sight)

[les.b]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I like them both but the holster even more!

Is that an El Paso made holster?

Thanks, Jim...yes, that is an El Paso, bought here on the forum from Watchdog!! Holds the three inch J frame, the one shown is my .32 Regulation Police.

Best Regards, Les

[KEN L]

Originally Posted by OldSarge21

I have a pre model 36 flat latch, 5 screw Chief Special that I would like some help from the experts to identify the proper stocks for. The round butt stocks that came on it do not number to the gun and are newer model stocks, but they do fit. My j frame combats seem a little big by the trigger guard area and the cut out seems too long. I don’t want to shoot it with the combats even though they feel great because I don’t want to damage them.

Can someone post pics of the proper stocks?
Does my gun have the small trigger guard or short grip frame?
Will it damage my combat stocks to shoot with them on this gun?
When was this revolver made, ser # 29619?
What does the cross on the grip frame signify?

Any other info regarding this model is welcome. Thanks.

Does my gun have the small trigger guard or short grip frame? - YES
Will it damage my combat stocks to shoot with them on this gun? - NO
When was this revolver made, ser # 29619? - Most likely shipped April 1953.

[OLDSTER]

Originally Posted by tlawler

I think, but not absolutely sure, it should have the diamond magnas like this. S/N puts it in 1954. Last #of 1953 was 28916 and first # of 1955 was 55050 according to SCSW4. Hope this helps. Mine is a 1955 at 587xx.

This 59XXX is 1955 "early J/post Baby J"-still retains the Baby J hammer. Sambar stag grips ( certainly not what ya want for original, but I couldn't pass them up )

[Green Frog]

"...but I certainly couldn't pass them up." Do ya reckon? I don't think any red-blooded revolver lover could pass those up. Then again, they really aren't the right (small magna) configuration for that Baby... maybe you'd better send them to me for my pre-War Terrier.

Froggie

[ABPOS]

Good thread. Wonderful guns.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

A few more milestones:

BABY CHIEFS Oct 27, 1950 Introduction - Transition Periods
1 to ~117…..standard thumb piece, followed by 1st style flat latch, round sight
292X……earliest observed smooth ramp shipped in February '52
6541…..earliest reported serrated ramp July 1952
116XX…..latest reported round sight, shipped 4/52, albeit a much higher # than most
12340…..highest reported smooth ramp c. May 1952
21342....Very Rare earliest square butt introduction 1952, still with small round trigger guard
251XX…..Baby J serrated ramp sight, and earliest 2nd style flat latch
290XX…..Earliest reported square-butt Chiefs Special Airweight with bug screw, alloy-cylinder, June 24, 1953
45962…..Rare 3 inch Barrel length
45963.....highest reported Baby J, Feb 1954 (which would have a serrated ramp sight)

Jim, Can you review the flat latch types and revisions (with pictures) on the early J frame Chiefs ? I think you posted it once prior but I lost my bookmark on it. Much appreciated. Sal

[les.b]

Sal, Two Bot Cowboy did a study of this as well....

Anyone have a flat latch like this on a mid '50s I or J frame?"

Best Regards, Les

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by les.b

Sal, Two Bot Cowboy did a study of this as well....

Anyone have a flat latch like this on a mid '50s I or J frame?"

Best Regards, Les

Les, You're "the man". I think that 1st model he shows that very same style, the 1st is very flat and the next (which he does not show) is the same shape but raised a bit more like a minimal slice off of a Tylenol capsule, minus the tutti-frutti colors

So I'm thinking that there is another between the 1st and 2nd shown in that post by two-bit cowboy.

[Hondo44]

Sal,

This has updates:

USE OF FLAT LATCHES

The 1st style flat latch began exclusively on the Baby J frame; (earliest known #111 presented by S&W to Col. Rex Applegate), used on most all after ~ #117 in very late 1950. The only other model to have used the 1st style was the alloy K frame, never on the I frames. The Baby J frame in the high 25,000 range, began a transition to the 2nd style flat latch in 1953.

The I frames used all four styles of the standard thumb piece before beginning use of the flat latch, starting with the Improved I frame (coil mainspring) - 2nd Variation (with ramp sight and barrel rib) in 1953; above # 60430X on the .32 I frames, and at around # 747XX on the.38 S&W .38/32 I frames.

There are no Improved I frame .22/32s neither 1st or 2nd I frame variations; so for the .22/32s, the coil spring and 2nd style flat latch began with the Model of 1953 New I frames.

So all Models of 1953 New I frames and New J frames were introduced using the 2nd style flat latch. A transition to the 3rd style flat latch began in the late 1956 period for all I and J frames until discontinued on all models in 1966.



THREE STYLES OF FLAT LATCHES:

1st style flat latch; convex surface and very slight ramp towards the front:




2nd style flat latch* began on the Improved I frames, K frame airweights, and Baby Js just prior to the Model of 1953 New J frames shown here; higher ramp and flat face:



*two-bit cowboy has identified a 4th style or sub variation of the 2nd style; same shape but with only 8 serrations.

3rd style shown on lower .38 Chief Spl. in first photo, with steeper incline at the front, and in 2nd photo; also used on Model of 1953 New I and New J frames, and K frame Airweights beginning mid late ‘50s; ending in 1966.




Photo by Watchdog


TWO STYLES OF FL and STANDARD THUMB PIECE LATCH BACKS – SPLIT AND SOLID:

I & J frames:

All pre flat latch thumb pieces are split.
flat latch have split backs.
All standard thumb pieces post flat latch are non-split after 1966.


K frames:

I have no flat latch K frames but most likely they are split based on the I & J frames above.
All my '50s K frame standard thumb pieces are split until about the 1980s.
All non-pinned barreled Ks I have (earliest is 1980) are non-split.

N frames (never used flat latches):

All my '50s models are split. I have no N frames newer than 1956.

NOTE: Flat latches have been changed by owners due to their dislike, non-traditional looks or both. Of course the bolt it's attached to, required replacement w/the FL type bolt.

[Hondo44]

My above post is now final after correcting some posting mistakes, if you copied an earlier version.

Sorry about that.

[OldSarge21]

I’m learning a lot here. Glad I started this thread. Has anyone else got a iron cross stamp on any of their revolvers grip frame? Thinking maybe it is a repair or gunsmiths stamp? See my first pic for the example.

[Wiregrassguy]

I've been looking at pictures of S&W stamps for over 6 years now and it's the first one I've seen except as a ding bat. Not to be saying they're not out there. Someone who has viewed a billion S&W revolvers in person and by picture might have a better perspective...like handejector, model3sw and Hondo44. Jes sayin'

[jms948]

I've got a beautiful set of mother of pearl stocks for your gun. PM to me if you are interested.