Gun Show Find Possibly a 1905 Fourth?

[ChuckD]

I found this last weekend at the Knoxville gun show. It was in a case with a lot of inexpensive/broken guns. The dealer said they were police confiscations. He called it a "pre Model 10." Is it a .38 M&P 1905 Fourth change? The Serial Number is 644xxx. The stocks are very smooth with a couple of chips, but numbered to the gun. The nickel finish looks pretty good to me but I don't know how to rate the % finish. It seems to lock up tight and the action is very smooth. I have not shot it yet. Can anyone venture a guess as to the ship date and value? I had no idea what model it is when I bought it and now am fascinated with these. Thanks for any input.

[JustinL]

It is a 4th Change M&P and its serial number suggests manufacture in 1934. I cannot give an estimate to its value as I am not sure if it has been refinished.

[ChuckD]

Originally Posted by JustinL

It is a 4th Change M&P and its serial number suggests manufacture in 1934. I cannot give an estimate to its value as I am not sure if it has been refinished.

How would you tell if it has been re-nickeled?

[Hondo44]

Chuck,

It's more of an art than a science.

Poor refinishes are easy to identify:
Most will have nickel plated hammers and triggers. This was not the factory procedure for plated guns.
Round corners, heavily buffed or washed out markings are also sure signs of refinish.

Factory re-finishes have the quality of brand new guns with none of the above mistakes. And easy to identify because they will have a "re-work" date stamped under the grip on the left side of the grip frame. And usually a star by the serial # on the butt.

Your gun falls in an in between category:
It does not look refinished to me, at least not poorly refinished if it is, although I'd need a lot better photos to evaluate. For example, the hammer and trigger are not plated, a good sign. However, the finish is awfully good for all the wear on the grips which as you say are original, another clue to a refinish.

But a well cared for gun COULD look that good. Although the logo on the left frame side appears to be a little washed out but I can't see well enough to be certain.

Using the criteria above, and having the gun in your hands, what is your opinion now?

[jaykellogg]

It looks like a refinish to me. Here is mine, which I believe is original finish. The recesses for the sideplate screws on yours look just a bit washed out and compare the hole on the LH side of the frame below the cylinder latch.
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[DWalt]

1934 is a reasonable guess for a shipping date, but recognize it is possible that it could have been shipped somewhat later than that for various reasons. Only a factory letter would be authoritative. Just from what I see in the pictures, it strikes me as having either the original nickel finish or possibly a factory re-finish. It's tough to tell from a photo. Again, a factory letter would reveal if it was nickeled when it left the factory. If you got it in the $300-$400 range (or less), you did OK.

[ChuckD]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Chuck,

It's more of an art than a science.

Poor refinishes are easy to identify:
The factory procedure was not to nickel plate the hammer and trigger.
Round corners, heavily buffed or washed out markings are also sure signs of refinish.

Factory re-finishes have the quality of brand new guns with none of the above mistakes. And easy to identify because they will have a "re-work" date stamped under the grip on the left side of the grip frame. And usually a star by the serial # on the butt.

Your gun falls in an in between category:
It does not look refinished to me, at least not poorly refinished if it is, although I'd need a lot better photos to evaluate. For example, the hammer and trigger are not plated, a good sign. However, the finish is awfully good for all the wear on the grips which as you say are original, another clue to a refinish.

But a well cared for gun COULD look that good. Although the logo on the left frame side appears to be a little washed out but I can't see well enough to be certain.

Using the criteria above, and having the gun in your hands, what is your opinion now?

Jim thanks for the info. I tried to take some more detailed pictures, which are attached. As you say, the trigger and hammer are not refinished. There are no indicia of a factory refinish on the butt. The lettering on the barrel is very crisp--especially the serial number under the barrel. There does appear to be the letter "n" under there. Would that have been factory original, or might it have been added when refinished?

I agree that the trademark is shallow, especially on the left side (of the mark). That said, I think it is within the tolerance of how it might have been stamped at the factory. The serial number on the cylinder is also shallow, and only the middle four digits are visible. Would the factory have used only a partial number there? It resembles the middle four numbers under the barrel, which are symmetrical--the numerals on each end look to have been stamped separately.

The screw holes do seem scalloped as mentioned in jaykellog's post. I'm not seeing the issue with regard to the pins under the cylinder latch, though. They are both fairly visible, again within the tolerance of how it may have left the factory.

The pins in the barrel and ejector rod locking bolt are prominent and show no signs of refinish.

Unless the "n" under the barrel is dispositive, there are factors in favor of both refinished and not. Of course I am biased in favor of it not being refinished, so that's what I will go with. If you disagree please advise. Thanks.

[Hondo44]

The N is positive indicating it was originally a factory nickel gun and you should fine one on the grip frame as well.

Much improved photos, but unfortunately, the following indicate a re-finish to me, I'm afraid:

The logo looks within tolerance as you say, but the flat polished rebound slide pin to its right is a no-no. It should have a rounded protruding tip.
Cyl s/n should always be complete.
The front edges of the frame are clearly rounded.
The sideplate seam is very well done but the screw holes are wallowed from buffing at 2:00 o'clock.
The rear surface of the cyl and frame flats indicate buffing and are no longer truly flat surfaces.
The barrel pin is flattened indicating removal and reinstallation with a flat tipped pin punch instead of a proper cupped tip punch.

[Elliott41]

I have a factory letter on my 1905 Target 4th Change, 640XXX, which indicates it shipped on 21 April 1932. I hope this helps establish the age of yours.

[DWalt]

During the 1930s, very significant inconsistencies between manufacturing and shipment dates were common due to the economic upsets of the Great Depression. Due to high unemployment, few had any money to spend on guns back then, and slow sales were the rule. It's known that some guns/frames dating from the late 1920s and early 1930s remained in factory inventory until the start of WWII.

[DCWilson]

I agree with Hondo44 that the gun has been refinished, and for the same reasons. But the job was well done and in compliance with factory protocols even if the factory did not do it.

There is a school of thought that says any K-frame S&W in sound mechanical condition is a $300 gun. Higher quality is associated with higher value. I would provisionally value your revolver in the $300-400 range. A gun in that condition, if original, would be a $500-600 item. Discount a third for the high quality refinish (one half for a slapdash refinish), and you are at about $400.

Even refinished, that is a very nice specimen. After it was replated, it was carefully stored and cared for.

[ChuckD]

Thanks fellas for the input. Very informative. I will now have much better idea of what to look for in a refinish. I'm a little disappointed it's not original finish, but still feel pretty good about rescuing it. I bought it as a shooter, and didn't get hurt on the price. And it's nice to have a vintage model to do some research on. Thanks again..

[Hondo44]

You did well.

[KEN L]

Definitely a re-finish. Another dead giveaway is the rolled edges on the cylinder flutes and the edges of the locking notches. It just has that "look" to it. Sometimes it's hard to tell from pictures, but not in this case.