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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 02-19-2014, 09:15 PM
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Default History of the .22/32 Kit Guns - edited 6/20/14

This article will be one of many in my forthcoming book 101 CLASSIC FIREARMS, which should be available through Dillon Precision this Fall. We are in the final editing stages now, and it should be sent to the printer (here in the U.S.) by the end of July.

John



The origin of the term “kit gun” came about many years ago when the need was felt for a small, accurate .22 revolver that could be packed easily in a hunting or fishing kit. Such a gun would be ideal for bagging small game, snake protection, economical plinking fun, or in an emergency, self defense. Smith & Wesson fulfilled this need with a series of small-frame, adjustable-sight revolvers with 2- and 4-inch barrels that were of high quality. This is their story.

It all began back in 1896 with the development of a series of revolvers S&W called the “hand ejectors.” The main feature was a cylinder that swung out to the left side for loading and ejecting cartridges. The first of these to be produced with a smallish frame size was known as the “I” frame. It was initially chambered for the .32 S&W Long cartridge. This early revolver was manufactured from 1896 to 1903, and was incrementally improved over the following years. Production of the various .32 I-frames continued on, interrupted only by other priorities in World Wars I and II.

In 1910, a San Francisco gun dealer, Phil Bekeart, discussed with S&W the possibility of a .22 long rifle target revolver built on the .32 I-frame. He was so convinced that this would be a good seller that he agreed when S&W told him they’d have to build and sell him 1,000 guns to make it worthwhile. Accordingly, S&W tooled up, and by the spring of 1911, they began production. However, only 294 of these “.22/32” Target Models were completed and sold by Bekeart, as demand did not meet his optimistic expectations. In fact, additional production was not initiated until 1914. The Bekeart guns represented the first marriage of the .22 caliber and the small I-frame.

In 1934, in response to some inquiries as to the possibility of a shorter-barreled .22 LR small frame revolver as a handy take-along for hunters and fishermen in their travel kits, Smith and Wesson crafted a prototype. This gun, numbered 527712, was kept in-house by a member of the Wesson family. Other prototypes might possibly have been made. Actual production started in 1936. These were built on the I-frame, and featured 4” barrels and target sights. Stock styles varied, with three styles. These were round butt regular checkered, rebated-frame extended square butt checkered, and Bekeart-style extended square butt “two screw” checkered stocks that fully enclosed the rear grip strap. The first full production gun bore serial number 529,500 in the .32 Hand Ejector series. It was called the .22/32 Kit Gun. Production continued until World War II, with the last serial numbers of the “pre-war” guns probably coming in the 534,600 range, although the opinions of experts vary. It should be noted that S&W did not produce complete guns with sequentially progressive serial numbers, nor did they ship them, necessarily, in serial number order. It’s been estimated that anywhere from 1325 to 1500 “pre-war” kit guns were assembled from 1936 to 1940.

Some frames with pre-war serial numbers were not completed and shipped until after the war. The revolver illustrated used one of a batch of 25 frames in the serial number range 534,533 to 534,557 that were not completed in 1940 like others in that range. These went out the door at least 10 years later with some mixed pre-war and postwar parts. This specific gun used a pre-war 4” barrel, frame, cylinder and sights, but was fitted with the new hammer block safety, post-war-style cylinder release, internally slotted lockplate and post-war stocks. It was given a bright blue finish and shipped on June 5, 1951 to an individual then living in Ardsley-on-Hudson, New York. These specific 25 “transition” guns are quite collectible and valuable today. Interestingly, some gun dealers who received these pre-war/post-war guns rejected them in favor of newly manufactured guns, not realizing, of course, that they were being blessed with future collector prizes!

Following the war, production started anew on the Kit Guns, beginning at serial number 534,587 of the .32 Hand Ejector series. The numbers were intermixed with the .32 guns’ serials. These first post-war guns used pre-war style frames, but incorporated newer components including the now-standard hammer block safety.

In 1953, a new series of Kit Guns was produced and sold. The official designation was “.22/32 Kit Gun, Model of 1953.” These differed from previous production in having a new I-frame with a coiled mainspring and micro-click sights. They had 4 screws, coil mainsprings, larger trigger guards and larger grip frames like the new “J-frame” revolvers then being produced for personal defense purposes. This began a separate serial number series starting with number 101. This number series continued until October 1968, when the serials had progressed to number 135,465. The top sideplate screw was authorized for elimination on December 13, 1955. This change was phased in gradually between serial numbers 11,000 and approximately 14,000. It was in this Model of 1953 series that a 2” barreled version was first offered.

In 1957, Smith & Wesson renamed its lineup of handguns with numbers, and the Kit Gun became the Model 34. This model number was stamped in the frame cut for the yoke.

A significant change came in 1961 when the Model 34 Kit Gun was produced using the complete “J” frame, which was slightly larger. It simplified manufacturing, and the change was implemented at serial number 70,000. These J-frame revolvers are stamped “Model 34-1.” A new “M” prefix series was started in 1969, beginning with serial M1. An extremely rare bunch of about 15 guns, chambered in .22 LR and with fixed "groove" rear sights, were crafted in March of 1972. Only four were completely assembled and shipped. The 1988 Model 34-2 models had a new yoke retention system.

An Airweight Kit Gun was introduced in November 1954, with pilot production beginning around serial number 5000. However, actual mass production and distribution did not begin until January 1958, with serial numbers starting at 32,244. This gun had an aluminum alloy cylinder and frame. This was first known as the Model of 1955, and then officially as the Model 43 .22/32 Kit Gun Airweight. Since it was based on the J-frame rather than the I-frame from the beginning, there was never a 43-1 variation. The Model 43 was made only until 1974, when it was discontinued.

In May of 1960, the Model 51 .22/32 Rim Fire Magnum Kit Gun was introduced, chambered for the .22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum. The first serial number was 52,637. These were made only on the J-frame, and were produced until 1974. Both round and square butt variations were available, with the round butt type being the rarest. Models 43 and 51 were both numbered in the standard Model 34 series.

A “stainless kit gun,” the Model 63, was offered from 1977 to 1998, in both square and round butt configurations. Both 4” and 2” barrels were produced. There were a number of variations.

Post-war Kit Guns made after 1953 were offered with either 4” or 2” barrels. Both blued and nickeled finishes were available, as well as round and square grip frames. The central “diamond” pattern of the checkered grips was eliminated in 1968. The pinned barrel came to an end in 1982. As a point of information, all Kit Guns since the beginning have chambers recessed for the cartridge rims. I have seen, handled and shot a Model 34-1 two-inch–barreled Kit Gun made in 1980. It had deluxe features, including a nickel finish, a red ramp front sight, a white outline rear sight, and smooth stocks, so evidently there were plenty of options for these little guns.

These were very popular firearms with sportsmen, fishermen, plinkers, and anyone who just wanted a small, handy and accurate .22 revolver. However, all good things must come to an end, and in 1991, the Model 34 Kit Guns were dropped from the Smith & Wesson lineup. Still, the demand for these small guns was such that several similar small .22 revolvers were later offered by S&W with new model designations. Good specimens of all the Kit Gun variations are in high demand today, and prices have escalated rapidly in the last few years. Classic guns, every one!

(c) 2014 JLM
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:55 PM
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In your original description, you forgot to mention J-frame, although you did bring it into play later….

Just my 2˘, but I do a lot of writing…..re-write some of the descriptions to do more of a time-lime. You'r skipping from date to date. I know it is tough, but you might preface each gun variety with a date-range and then go into the descriptions as if you were following a date-line.

Good information!
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:00 PM
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Default Kit Gun History

I believe you have covered the subject very well, included many points I wasn't aware of. Always an interesting subject, well done and thank you Sir!
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:58 AM
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John,

Great summary! And I realize that it is just a summary which is always difficult to do w/o creating confusion; what does one include and which details are TMI (too much information)???

So here are a few suggestion/clarifications/what-have-you:


“Smith & Wesson fulfilled this need with a series of small-frame, adjustable-sight revolvers with 2- and 4-inch barrels which were of high quality.”

They also had both round and rebated extended sq butt stocks.


“Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war, at which point they were upgraded with an improved hammer block safety…”

22/32 Kit Guns and Targets were upgraded with 'a' hammer block safety rather than 'improved' because they were unique among I frames in that they had no previous hammer block safety per se before the war like the other I frames.


“….some gun dealers who received these pre-war/post-war guns rejected them in favor of newly-manufactured guns, not realizing that they were being gifted with future collector prizes!”

Dealers weren’t gifted; they realized no benefit from future collectibles and only lost sales because they didn’t get the new Mod of 1953 “NEW” I frame.


"These immediate post-war new-manufacture guns were almost identical to the older guns, but incorporated newer components including the now-standard hammer block safety."

These are so rare, I don’t believe any were new manufacture, just left over pre war frames assembled into guns with pre/post war parts and features etc. For example there were no Improved I frame w/coil spring 22/32s as there were 32s and 38 S&Ws.


"In 1953, a new series of Kit Guns was produced and sold. The new designation was “.22/32 Kit Gun, Model of 1953.” These differed from previous production in having an improved I-frame with a coiled mainspring and micro-click sights."

These are not an 'Improved I frame' which 5 screws (the SCSW has already created much confusion), they are 'New I frame' models with 4 screws, coil spring, new larger trigger guard and new larger grip frame both rd and sq butt associated with the full size J frame; an entirely new frame forging. The 2” barrel was introduced as well.


“This series was offered until October, 1968….”

Please clarify ‘series’ as serial number series.


“The top side plate screw was authorized for elimination on December 13, 1955, and this was carried out at approximately serial number M11,000.”

The 4th screw still existed on Kit Guns almost to #14,000. Any change had a transition duration rather than a serial # cut off. The M prefix didn’t exist until 1969.


“The model number was stamped in the yoke cut of the frame.”

There is no “yoke cut”, it was stamped on the frame side of the yoke hinge.


“This was known as the Model 43 .22/32 Kit Gun Airweight.”

First it was known as the Model of 1955.


"Post-war Kit Guns made after 1957 were available with both 4” and 2” barrels."
The year was 1953.


“However, all good things must come to an end, and in 1991, the Model 34 Kit Guns were dropped from the Smith & Wesson lineup. Good specimens of all the variations are in high demand today, and prices have escalated rapidly in the last few years. Classic guns, every one!”

As a wrap up, you might mention that the popularity of the 22/32 Kit Gun was such that several similar model 22s were introduced following the demise of the Mod 34 and still offered today.

You may want to check this as well:
THE POST WAR I FRAMES EVOLUTION - Smith & Wesson Forum
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:56 AM
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John, nice overview. I would just point out that reported prewar serial number range has varied greatly over the the years, and the observed serial numbers do not strictly observe the data points you report. For example, several .22/32s are known that letter as Kit Guns (not rebuilds or pre-shipment conversions) with serial numbers in the 529xxx range. I have 529488.

Though it letters as a special order HFT, a round-butt four-inch .22/32 numbered 527712 exists. This gun, which dates to 1934, was delivered to a member of the Wesson family. I have always suspected that a handful of prototype Kit Guns were manufactured at that time for ownership/management review as a possible new model.

The highest serial number on a prewar KG I have personally observed is 534566, which shipped in the first half of 1940. Three other prewar guns in my data base number slightly higher -- 534571, 534576 and 534579; they shipped between August and October of 1940. I have never seen any Kit Gun, prewar or postwar transitional, numbered in the 535xxx or 536xxx range, and I've been looking for them. I believe all prewar KGs will be numbered below 534600. I have seen the upper number 536684 that you report, but I think it it cannot be correct. For a couple of years now, ignoring reports and going exclusively on observation, I have been using the range 529450-534600 for prewar KGs (a few of which, we now know from the evidence of your fine revolver, were actually shipped after the war).

The total production of prewar and postwar transitional Kit Guns has not to my knowledge been published, and of course specimens like yours -- prewar frames rebuilt at the factory after the war and sold at that time -- muddy the waters a little. From statistical analysis of serial number ranges determined from known specimens I have come to believe that no more than 1325 Kit Guns were assembled from 1936-1940. There have been reports that 1500 postwar transitional Kit Guns were produced, but I think that number must be too high; if that many existed, we should be seeing more of them turn up in private sales or at auction.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:12 AM
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I believe your M-51 production quantity (600) is for the round butt model, not the total production of all model 51's. They are getting hard to find, but if total production was 600 they would be nearly impossible to find.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:44 PM
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Thanks for all the useful comments so far. I will try to incorporate what you have mentioned, and post a re-draft. It's great to have such expertise here as a resource!

John
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:07 PM
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I've just completed a new draft, hopefully addressing all the comments so far. Again, I appreciate all the expert help! See the OP for changes.

John
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:55 PM
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Very nice reading John.
I am not an expert on this gun or writing but i would consider using, offered in round or rebated frame instead of saying grips. The Reg police style grips would need to be also mentioned with the Bekeart style in context.

In learning about this gun the use of extended walnut square butt grips confuses me the most of all in letters. I am not sure if it means Reg or Bekeart style grips.

Again great reading
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paplinker View Post
Very nice reading John.
I am not an expert on this gun or writing but i would consider using, offered in round or rebated frame instead of saying grips. The Reg police style grips would need to be also mentioned with the Bekeart style in context.

In learning about this gun the use of extended walnut square butt grips confuses me the most of all in letters. I am not sure if it means Reg or Bekeart style grips.

Again great reading
In comparing my 1940/1951 gun's grip frame to my .22/32 Bekeart-style target gun, it's apparent that the rebated extended square-butt stocks were probably affixed to round grip frames like the Bekeart guns, and this is confusing. I'm not sure if a square grip frame with matching stocks was ever offered. Perhaps one of our experts can answer this question.

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Old 02-20-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
In comparing my 1940/1951 gun's grip frame to my .22/32 Bekeart-style target gun, it's apparent that the rebated extended square-butt stocks were probably affixed to round grip frames like the Bekeart guns, and this is confusing. I'm not sure if a square grip frame with matching stocks was ever offered. Perhaps one of our experts can answer this question.

John
John,

No, there were no square butt grip frames prior to the Model of 1953.

The Regulation Police single screw extended square stocks required a rebate cut in the backstrap of the round grip frame and were standard on the "Bekeart" style 22/32 Heavy Frame Target models from c. 1920 to late mid 1920s. They were an option on the Kit Guns.

Regulation Police single screw extended square stocks showing the required rebate cut in the backstrap and square toe of the forestrap modifications to the round grip frame:


The two screw extended Target grips were standard on HFTs before and after the above period, and an option during that period. They were also an option on the Kit Guns, but when ordered, the backstrap was not rebated.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:33 PM
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"This change was phased in gradually between serial number M11,000 and approximately M14,000.."

No M prefix until 1969.

"The 1988 Model 34-2 models had the new yoke retention system with the flange down the left side of the frame."

The Mod 34-2 did not have the flange of the JM (J Magnum) frame not introduced until Aug. 1996 and was therefore never built on the JM frame.

Model 34-2 1990 vintage with 3 letter prefixed serial # (top gun in photo) on the standard J frame w/o flange,
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:36 PM
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John,

No, there were no square butt grip frames prior to the Model of 1953.

The Regulation Police single screw extended square stocks required a rebate cut in the backstrap of the round grip frame and were standard on the "Bekeart" style 22/32 Heavy Frame Target models from c. 1920 to late mid 1920s. They were an option on the Kit Guns.

Regulation Police single screw extended square stocks showing the required rebate cut in the backstrap and square toe of the forestrap modifications to the round grip frame:


The two screw extended Target grips were standard on HFTs before and after the above period, and an option during that period. They were also an option on the Kit Guns, but when ordered, the backstrap was not rebated.
Thank you for clearing that up! So there were THREE styles of stocks: regular round-butt checkered, extension square-butt on a rebated round butt frame, and "Bekeart" style 2-screw extension square butt on a standard round butt frame. Am I correct? I've attempted to relate this in the OP - please check what I said for accuracy. I REALLY appreciate your help on this!

John
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:47 PM
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And don't forget the later evolution of the SS cousins, the M63.
Good piece you've done....
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
"This change was phased in gradually between serial number M11,000 and approximately M14,000.."

No M prefix until 1969.

"The 1988 Model 34-2 models had the new yoke retention system with the flange down the left side of the frame."

The Mod 34-2 did not have the flange of the JM (J Magnum) frame not introduced until Aug. 1996 and was therefore never built on the JM frame.

Model 34-2 1990 vintage with 3 letter prefixed serial # (top gun in photo) on the standard J frame w/o flange,
Gotcha. Thanks for catching the "M" prefix boo-boo. Pls. check the OP for the revised revision of the original revised revision! I'm getting punchy!

John
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:59 PM
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The only thing you failed to mention was the M35 which was a 6" version of the 34.
I have a 34-1 (1975) and a 35-1(1967) Both are wonderful revolvers and the 35 is extremely accurate, even more so than my K22 (1970)

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Old 02-20-2014, 06:13 PM
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John,

Looking good, stocks are correct. I think a comment on the stainless version, the Mod 63 of 1977, made until 1998, would be appropriate as Old Corp posted.
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Irascible View Post
The only thing you failed to mention was the M35 which was a 6" version of the 34.
I have a 34-1 (1975) and a 35-1(1967) Both are wonderful revolvers and the 35 is extremely accurate, even more so than my K22 (1970)
John's history is only of the Kit Gun although a mention of the 6" Target version being continued after the war wouldn't be inappropriate if he decides to include.
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:44 PM
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The only thing you failed to mention was the M35 which was a 6" version of the 34.
I have a 34-1 (1975) and a 35-1(1967) Both are wonderful revolvers and the 35 is extremely accurate, even more so than my K22 (1970)
Due to space considerations and the fact that this was not strictly a "kit gun," but a target gun, I can't consider it for inclusion here. Thanks for mentioning it, though. It's certainly a close relative, and was numbered in the Model 34 series.

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Old 02-20-2014, 06:46 PM
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John,

Looking good, stocks are correct. I think a comment on the stainless version, the Mod 63 of 1977, made until 1998, would be appropriate as Old Corp posted.
Done! Thanks!

John
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Old 02-20-2014, 07:29 PM
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John, very nice article but in your second paragraph, I believe the little M-frame Ladysmith .22 was the smallest hand ejector and certainly worthy of mention.
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Old 02-20-2014, 07:55 PM
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Boy so much stuff to know.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:25 PM
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I liked it, I also have a pre 34 and also a 34. They are always in the range bag, the kids love them.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldnavynukespook View Post
John, very nice article but in your second paragraph, I believe the little M-frame Ladysmith .22 was the smallest hand ejector and certainly worthy of mention.
You are quite correct. However, with my space limitations, I really don't want to get into an analysis of all the (seven?) frame sizes that have developed over the years, and compare M, I, K, N, L, J frames etc., etc. I re-wrote that paragraph so as to concentrate only on the I-frame and ignore the rest. This is a necessarily narrow look at the origins of the frame first used for the .22/32 Kit Guns. Your comment made me re-focus on that. Again, the M-frame Ladysmiths were cute, little, and charming, but would be an unnecessary digression from the theme of this article. Thanks, though!

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Old 02-20-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war, at which point they were upgraded with the new hammer safety block and shipped with a combination of pre-war and post-war features.
John,
I don't believe that.
It is pretty well accepted that there was very little, IF anything, left in the vaults of ANY of the gun manufacturers during the War. Do you actually think there were neat little 22 revolvers sitting there when dealers were cut off from new guns for about 5 years? The factories were not restricted from selling any guns the Govt did not want, just like they were not restricted from doing service work/repairs for the public during the War.
All the factories were able to move lots of turkeys! If the Brits didn't get them for the looming invasion by Hitler in the summer of 40, dealers would have taken anything the factories would sell.
So, post war guns were made with pre war parts if any were on hand. If parts were needed, they still had all the tooling to make them, but of course they would be made in the pre war style till models were revised and new dies, jigs, and tooling could be built.
But I don't believe there were any desirable guns sitting in the vault during the War.




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Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
There is no “yoke cut”, it was stamped on the frame side of the yoke hinge.
The cut in the frame that the yoke recesses into IS called the "yoke cut". A couple of pics are below, which are page 169 (last line) in a book called History of Smith & Wesson by a fellow called Jinks, and page 429 in a little book called SCSW by Supica and Nahas. But they could be wrong.
A yoke is not a hinge. They both pivot, but they have different names because they have slightly different functions.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:36 PM
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Should this sentence not read "until World War One halted production temporarily."?
------------quote
Production of the various .32 I-frames continued until World War II halted production temporarily.
-------------end quote
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
The cut in the frame that the yoke recesses into IS called the "yoke cut". A couple of pics are below, which are page 169 (last line) in a book called History of Smith & Wesson by a fellow called Jinks, and page 429 in a little book called SCSW by Supica and Nahas. But they could be wrong.
A yoke is not a hinge. They both pivot, but they have different names because they have slightly different functions.
Lee,

Books wrong?? Only when I quote them...but that's why we have you to keep us straight.

I still have a lot to learn...and these days, a lot to re-learn!

Thanks!

John,

Sorry for the bum steer.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:54 AM
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John,
I don't believe that.
It is pretty well accepted that there was very little, IF anything, left in the vaults of ANY of the gun manufacturers during the War. Do you actually think there were neat little 22 revolvers sitting there when dealers were cut off from new guns for about 5 years? The factories were not restricted from selling any guns the Govt did not want, just like they were not restricted from doing service work/repairs for the public during the War.
All the factories were able to move lots of turkeys! If the Brits didn't get them for the looming invasion by Hitler in the summer of 40, dealers would have taken anything the factories would sell.
So, post war guns were made with pre war parts if any were on hand. If parts were needed, they still had all the tooling to make them, but of course they would be made in the pre war style till models were revised and new dies, jigs, and tooling could be built.
But I don't believe there were any desirable guns sitting in the vault during the War.
Lee, I don't pretend to have your expertise with Smith & Wessons. BUT, a gun exists that meets my description - and I have it. Here is what Roy says about it:

"... John, in the case of this kit gun I cannot be specific as you blocked out one of the numbers. However I can tell you that serial numbers falling between 534501 - 534532 and 534563 - 534586 were all shipped in 1940 and would have full prewar characteristics. The serial numbers 534533 - 534562 were shipped in 1950 & 1951 your guns is in this group and they were a mix of old and new parts. All the revolvers after serial number 534586 were shipped also as post World War II revolvers. I hope that this answers your question. Roy
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The gun in question has the pre-war frame, barrel, and cylinder. The frame, barrel and cylinder are all marked with the serial number, which is a 1940 number, one of a batch of 29 that Roy mentions above. I would think that a matching frame, barrel and cylinder constitute a de facto complete gun; and it's a matter of record that this and 28 others were kept at the factory until the early 1950s. Mine was upgraded with the hammer block safety and a new lockplate incorporating the slot for it.

My statement was "Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war, at which point they were upgraded with the new hammer safety block and shipped with a combination of pre-war and post-war features."

Based on Roy's comments and the characteristics of my gun, I stand by that statement. Now I also suspect that there were no huge numbers of these guns, but respectfully, 29 guns constitutes "some." I rest my case.

Best,
John
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TAROMAN View Post
Should this sentence not read "until World War One halted production temporarily."?
------------quote
Production of the various .32 I-frames continued until World War II halted production temporarily.
-------------end quote
Nope. I said, and meant WWII. On page 149 of The History of Smith & Wesson (1977 printing), I quote Roy Jinks:

"32 HAND EJECTOR THIRD MODEL
Incorporated 1911, produced until 1942. Serial number range 263,001 to 536,584." He goes on to say that the.32 Hand Ejector was placed back into production after the war in 1949.

John
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:49 AM
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John,
It is far more likely that 29 frames were numbered when the War stopped civilian production.
That block of 29 was skipped in 1940 production. That is no big deal because we know guns were produced out of serial number order all the time. It probably just depended which rack of frames was rolled to the fitters by some young guy that was never told to keep them in order.
Nothing in Roy's statement refutes my position.
Barrels and cylinders were numbered to guns till 1955-57, so how do you know if those Kit Gun barrels and cylinders were numbered in 1940 or 1950?
Roy even supports my position when he states the guns are mixes of pre and post war parts. They could not have been built till post war parts were available. I don't think they made post war parts till after the War.
If a frame already had a barrel and cylinder fitted, it would only take a few minutes to assemble a gun and send it to the vault. Time/Money/Material had already been invested in that gun, and they were too frugal to leave that dead capital sitting in a state that could be turned into cash by investing only a few minutes per gun at a time when they were literally faced with bankruptcy because of the Brit debt of $1,000,000, being demanded.

We know that the 32/20 which had become TURKEYS sold out in this period. We know that all Target 38s and 32s sold out. So, you tell me: What is ANY logical reason for 29 Kit Guns to be retained in the vault when dealers were screaming for anything the factory would sell?
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Old 02-21-2014, 10:02 AM
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John
I agree with lee your gun was not put together until 1950 it was prewar parts until that time. Just because it has a prewar number does not mean it was made up in 1940.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
Nope. I said, and meant WWII. On page 149 of The History of Smith & Wesson (1977 printing), I quote Roy Jinks:

"32 HAND EJECTOR THIRD MODEL
Incorporated 1911, produced until 1942. Serial number range 263,001 to 536,584." He goes on to say that the.32 Hand Ejector was placed back into production after the war in 1949.

John
There again, omitting a fact does not mean something did not occur. There was no civilian production during part of WW I. The Govt seized (nationalized) the plant in 1918 because they were not satisfied with production and management. They had been on management's back for quite some time before that, harping about needing more production. They returned control in Jan, 1919. I doubt the Govt was producing any 32 HEs in that period.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:51 PM
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There again, omitting a fact does not mean something did not occur. There was no civilian production during part of WW I. The Govt seized (nationalized) the plant in 1918 because they were not satisfied with production and management. They had been on management's back for quite some time before that, harping about needing more production. They returned control in Jan, 1919. I doubt the Govt was producing any 32 HEs in that period.
All that you say is true, Lee. I will modify the reference to the .32 HEs because of the WWI takeover of S&W by the government, which is well documented. By the same token "I believe" and "I doubt" do not provide proof positive. Someone once said on this board that he didn't believe S&W ever did a high polish Model 64. Remember that I provided one for you to inspect at the Tucson SWCA meeting a few years back? And that it was lettered? And that S&W didn't ship it until 11 years after its manufacture? A picture of it is posted on my S&W album here. The statement I believe in is "Never say never with Smith & Wesson."

I think we all need to hitch up our britches and wait until Roy can get around to providing the factory letter on my transition gun - should be interesting!

Best regards,
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:04 PM
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OK, why do YOU think guns would sit in the vault 5 years when dealers would buy anything S&W would ship them?
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:22 PM
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Dang it! Now I want one!
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:57 PM
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OK, why do YOU think guns would sit in the vault 5 years when dealers would buy anything S&W would ship them?
A. Partially completed - priorities suddenly shifted to getting Victory models out the door. Put in a back room until found in the move into new quarters on Roosevelt Ave.

B. The British didn't want them - .22s were not much use against the anticipated Nazi invasion - Operation Sea Lion.

C. The fact that there were 29 of them with the same history, not listed as parts, but guns.

D. And last, but not least, **** happens.

Again, just because "I think," "I believe" or "I doubt" are not conclusive, that applies to me, also. Until we get a peek at what Roy finds in the records, it's conjecture, one way or the other. We'll see. I've inspected the gun carefully, and all parts with the exception of the obviously replaced sideplate look like they were carefully mated and not thrown together from a bin of parts.

Tell ya what though, Lee - Let's each put $5 on the table, and if Roy can tell us (eventually) with certainty that this gun was held for 10+ years complete or partially complete with frame, barrel, and cylinder mated - or not - in the factory letter - one of us will be so much richer! If he's not sure, then we will simply have unverified conjecture. Game on?



John
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:09 PM
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Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war,
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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
A. Partially completed - priorities suddenly shifted to getting Victory models out the door.
Never mind.
This will be my last post here.
We seem to be wandering all over the field. I said no completed guns were sitting in the vault. I'm looking at a Kit Gun with post war magna grips (there were no I frame magnas before the war) and post war thumb latch, so it was NOT a complete gun before the war.
If it had been a complete gun before the war, why didn't they sell it in 45 or 46 when dealers were driving them crazy for guns, and they even spelled out their projected production plans in the AMCs? They held it FOUR or FIVE more years? I guess it could take that long to check in the vault to see if they had anything they could sell.




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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
B. The British didn't want them - .22s were not much use against the anticipated Nazi invasion - Operation Sea Lion.
I said Dealers were clamoring for guns.



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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
C. The fact that there were 29 of them with the same history, not listed as parts, but guns.
What history?
Listed where?
They are in a block of numbers. That block of numbers would exist whether they were not ever used, used in 39-40, or used in 49-50.


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D. And last, but not least, **** happens.
Yep, all the time, even on the internet and in print.

I just wanted to clarify something for you and for other readers.
Believe what you want to. Oh, wait.......
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:11 PM
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In 1910, a San Francisco gun dealer, Phil Bekeart, discussed with S&W the possibility of a .22 long rifle target revolver built on the .32 I-frame. He was so convinced that this would be a good seller that he prevailed on the company to build and sell him 1,000 guns. Accordingly, S&W tooled up, and by the spring of 1911, they began production. However, only 292 of these “.22/32” Target Models were completed and sold, as demand did not meet the expectations of Mr. Bekeart. In fact, additional production was not initiated until 1914. The Bekeart guns represented the first marriage of the .22 caliber and the small I-frame.
Actually when Bekeart asked the company to produce a .22 on the larger .32 frame, they were unwilling to do so due to the cost of the retooling. The only way that the company would complete the order was if Bekeart ordered 1000 pieces. Believing that this new gun would sell like hotcakes, Bekeart went ahead and ordered the guns. The company retooled and began producing the Bekeart model or the .22/32 HFT as it came to be known. Bekeart only received 294 (not 292 as has been previously reported) of this new model in 6 shipments from 30 pieces on June 7, 1911 to 34 pieces on October 13, 1911. As a new model, S&W decided to number the bottom of the left stock panel as each gun was assembled and this process continued for the first 3000 produced. The guns were not assembled in serial number order so therefore there is no direct correlation between the stock number and the serial number. The initial run of 1000 actually turned out to be 1044 pieces as the factory always ran extra in case of any defects. The run began with serial number 138226 and the Bekeart shipped guns were between 138227 and 139275.

S&W actually sold more than the 294 and the balance of the guns in the initial run of 1044 were distributed through S&W's normal distribution channels.

The gun became a cataloged item in 1915 and although the SCSW reports this to be around serial number 160000, I own 163467 that actually shipped in May of 1912. Chambers were recessed in 1935 at around serial number 525600 and the kit gun was born from this design at around serial number 525670.


While I don't expect you to include all of this information in your article, I provide it to clarify a few Bekeart details. I think that the fact that S&W wasn't willing to make this revolver unless Bekeart was willing to commit to a 1000 gun order is an important fact in the development. Bekeart was so confident that he could sell 1000 of this model, he went ahead and made the order. Although the gun was popular enough that the original 1000 guns did sell, they did not sell through Bekeart. Had he not had the courage of his convictions, the .22/32 might not have been built. Also, therefore without this request, the kit gun may never have been produced.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:08 PM
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The key points of logic to me in support of my belief that the 30 guns in question (there are 30 numbers not 29) were not completed before the war and therefore not shipped then, are:

We know many transitional guns were sold after the war with several pre war parts like Service stocks with pre war checkering line count per inch, sharp cornered borders, flat silver medallions, and pre war notched barrels with patent dates, large extractor rod knobs, and thumb pieces. Some transitionals are even reported w/o the new safety slide bar hammer block.

This kit gun has a pre war style barrel notched for large knob BUT w/o patent dates, post war thumb piece, and stocks. If it had been completely built before the war it would only have pure pre war parts and patent dates on the barrel.

Since we know the factory routinely used pre war parts after the war, if it was rebuilt after the war to add the hammer block, the perfectly good pre war parts would not have been discarded and replaced w/post war parts.

Since we also know patent dated pre war barrels were used after the war when in inventory, a mounted and blued pre war barrel would not have been removed, then re-blued and re-installed just to remove the patent dates.

I also agree any completed guns in inventory would have been sold as built during and after the war to dealers clamoring for product.

Therefore I believe these guns were built from pre war forged and serial #'d incomplete frames, and a mixture of incomplete/un-blued pre war barrels and extractor rods, and post war thumb piece and stocks. It's likely that all 30 guns in this serial # range are not exactly the same parts wise.
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:39 PM
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One final shot here (in the dark? ). This gun bears both "R" stamps on the barrel and extractor, and an "S" stamp near the bottom of the grip frame on the right side (see pictures).

The "R" standing for "Rework," it seems logical to me that this stamp would not be applied to parts, but to complete or near-complete guns that did not meet then-current standards, and which were marked for upgrading.

The "S" means the gun was upgraded to include the hammer block safety. This was common with some Victory models produced before the safety was added. There would have been no need for the "S" stamp if the gun was simply put together from parts. It implies there was existing lockwork which needed to be modified.

The fact that the gun bears some post-war parts is consistent with both stamps, indicating upgrading of an existing piece.

We'll let Roy be arbiter on this when we can see a factory letter.

Until then - to me, the issue is still up in the air. Call me stubborn if you will, but I've been right once or twice before!

Accordingly, I modified the original text so the situation dealing with this particular revolver is ambiguous. I shoulda been a politician.

John
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
One final shot here (in the dark? ). This gun bears both "R" stamps on the barrel and extractor, and an "S" stamp near the bottom of the grip frame on the right side (see pictures).

The "R" standing for "Rework," it seems logical to me that this stamp would not be applied to parts, but to complete or near-complete guns that did not meet then-current standards, and which were marked for upgrading.

The "S" means the gun was upgraded to include the hammer block safety. This was common with some Victory models produced before the safety was added. There would have been no need for the "S" stamp if the gun was simply put together from parts. It implies there was existing lockwork which needed to be modified.
I lied.
I'll post again.

What pics do you mean?
I would like to see a pic of the S.

Victories that were upgraded to the new hammer block had an S stamped on the sideplate under the grip horn, not the gripframe, and the S was added to the butt number.
An S on the gripframe usually means 'Service Dept' and was added when they fixed cosmetic or mechanical problems found on completed guns.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:37 PM
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I lied.
I'll post again.

What pics do you mean?
I would like to see a pic of the S.

Victories that were upgraded to the new hammer block had an S stamped on the sideplate under the grip horn, not the gripframe, and the S was added to the butt number.
An S on the gripframe usually means 'Service Dept' and was added when they fixed cosmetic or mechanical problems found on completed guns.
Lee,

I had posted these pics previously on another thread, but to save you the trouble of looking them up, here they are again. I think you'll agree that they are interesting, and we'll see what Roy has to say in the factory letter. The "R" stamp was also found under the ejector star, but was impossible to photograph adequately.

Best,
John









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Old 06-20-2014, 10:40 PM
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Default Factory letter on the gun in the original post!

Just received the S&W factory letter on the gun in the original post. Here is the specific quote from Roy Jinks on it:

We have researched your Smith & Wesson .22/32 Kit Gun, Pre-Model 34 Variation, caliber .22 Long Rifle, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 53454x was shipped from our factory on June 5, 1951, and delivered to J. Baxter Gardner, Ardsley-on-Hudson, NY. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 4 inch barrel equipped with a Patridge front sight, bright blue finish, and checkered walnut round butt grips. The frame for this revolver was produced prior to World War II, but the revolver was not completed until after World War II. There were a group of 25 units that were assembled in this time frame having the serial numbers 534533 - 534557.

So, this one is a rare bird - frame made prior to the war, completed after the war with upgraded post-war parts, and given a bright blue finish. One of only 25 so made and still in original as-shipped condition! I'm tickled to let you know what Roy found out about it! This particular gun will be covered in my coming book, 101 Classic Firearms.

John
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Old 06-21-2014, 01:15 AM
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Bravo! That's a good letter and surefire confirmation.
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:46 PM
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It's interesting that the gun was sent to an individual, J. Baxter Gardner. I Googled that name and the town, and actually came up with a couple of news clippings on him from 1947. One of them mentioned that he was going out of town on a hunting trip to Tennessee. How times have changed. Guns don't get sent to individuals now (unless they are FFL holders), and folks don't announce in the papers or elsewhere when they are going out of town. I wonder if it was a special order, especially since a "bright blue finish" was specified. It still sparkles.

How the gun came out of NY state to Arizona is anybody's guess; and it's amazing that it's still in such incredible condition. The gun just walked in off the street at a gun show several months ago. The owner was showing it to a dealer who could not offer him what it was worth and still mark it up. I asked to see it, and immediately struck a deal. I couldn't be more pleased.

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Old 06-21-2014, 05:39 PM
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John,

I'm just as impressed with that gun and excited for you. To me it's a find of a lifetime, as much as a TL or RM is to most folks. It's just such a unique package of pre and post war production features and yet still completely factory original.

If I had to guess, "gun-to-my-head", I would say the finish is the original pre war bright blue or if not blued already, it no doubt already had the pre war high polish on the metal, therefore came out bright when blued.

My reasoning for this opinion is that a special ordered bright blue finish is usually indicated by Roy in his letter. Also, during the period when satin blue was standard, a large B was usually stamped after the serial # on the barrel flat to indicate the optional bright blue finish.

Either way, it's the best blue finish I've ever seen on a post war I frame and as good or better than the pre war blue. My pre war kit gun's finish shown here, although nice, certainly doesn't rival yours; and neither does my photo taking skill!
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Old 06-21-2014, 07:15 PM
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John,

I'm just as impressed with that gun and excited for you. To me it's a find of a lifetime, as much as a TL or RM is to most folks. It's just such a unique package of pre and post war production features and yet still completely factory original.

If I had to guess, "gun-to-my-head", I would say the finish is the original pre war bright blue or if not blued already, it no doubt already had the pre war high polish on the metal, therefore came out bright when blued.

My reasoning for this opinion is that a special ordered bright blue finish is usually indicated by Roy in his letter. Also, during the period when satin blue was standard, a large B was usually stamped after the serial # on the barrel flat to indicate the optional bright blue finish.

Either way, it's the best blue finish I've ever seen on a post war I frame and as good or better than the pre war blue. My pre war kit gun's finish shown here, although nice, certainly doesn't rival yours; and neither does my photo taking skill!
Jim,

I would hate to disagree with you a bit, because I'm sure you've forgotten more than I could ever learn on these guns, but let me make an observation.

I think the high polish blue on this gun may be post-war. As I'm sure you know, numbered stocks are always finish-formed on the frame, and the stocks and the metal are thereby finally mated as a matched set.

These post-war numbered stocks are a perfect fit to the frame - check the photos of the gun to verify this. Since the final high polish and bright bluing had to be applied after the mating of the stocks to the frame, it seems logical that the finish had to post-date the stocks, which are definitely postwar. Is my logic faulty here? I can see that an initial high polish might have been applied pre-war, and that the grip frame could have been buffed to match after the war and then blued - another possibility.

John

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Old 06-21-2014, 10:02 PM
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Jim,

I would hate to disagree with you a bit, because I'm sure you've forgotten more than I could ever learn on these guns, but let me make an observation.

I think the high polish blue on this gun may be post-war. As I'm sure you know, numbered stocks are always finish-formed on the frame, and the stocks and the metal are thereby finally mated as a matched set.

These post-war numbered stocks are a perfect fit to the frame - check the photos of the gun to verify this. Since the final high polish and bright bluing had to be applied after the mating of the stocks to the frame, it seems logical that the finish had to post-date the stocks, which are definitely postwar. Is my logic faulty here? I can see that an initial high polish might have been applied pre-war, and that the grip frame could have been buffed to match after the war and then blued - another possibility.

John
John,

No, not faulty at all and you make an excellent point. The grips did have to be fit to the frame after the war and the frame blued OR REBLUED.

I'm just trying to reason why it would have a bright blue finish in 1951 with no indications that it was special ordered with the bright blue option, i.e., the large B stamping and not in Roy's shipping records to include in his letter.

I always understood that the bright shiny finish comes mostly from the level of bright shiny metal polishing before being blued. So if the frame was sitting in process all polished ready to blue or already blued when commercial production came to a screeching halt for war production, after the war the grips would be match fitted, the grip frame polished and then blued or reblued.

The more I use your reasoning, the more I believe you're correct; blued or reblued after the war. In fact logic tells me that any gun part sitting around thru the war and until completed or rebuilt in 1951 would clearly need refinishing.

And that may explain the exceptional bright shiny finish; if it was already polished for a bright pre war blue job, would they scratch it all up again for a satin finish? Or would they just re-polish it resulting in an extraordinary high polish? I think maybe the latter. But I admit, I just don't know.

Like you observed, odd that it was shipped to an individual but maybe J. Baxter Gardner was a friend of the Wesson's and could he have ordered the gun thru them which had extra care or did he get a very special gift from them?

I just know it's an unbelievably beautiful gun!
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Old 06-21-2014, 11:51 PM
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Old 06-22-2014, 12:40 AM
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John,

I just completed reading your edited history of the 22/32. This line: " A significant change came in 1961 when the Model 34 Kit Gun was produced using the complete “J” frame...." could be misleading and you might want to consider something like this: 'The change from I frame to J frame was authorized October 1960....'

It's from pg 152 in Roy's book, H of S&W.

And you might want to consider including this key option, wide target trig.

Otherwise it looks great!
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