K200 38/200 British Service Revolver

B

bob42

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Just picked up a 4" s/n 687454. Appears to have been bright blue. It has checkered diamond stocks with medallions, serial numbered to the gun. S/N is also on barrel flat(with a "B" stamped far to the left of the number), cylinder & rear of ejector. Yoke has B687454 with the "B" hard to decipher and the last "4" almost over-stamped on the "5".
The last patent date on the barrel is Dec.29.14 with the crown over BNP & the .38.767' over 3 1/2 TONS. Right side of barrel has 38 S & W CTG. Cylinder is proof stamped at each hole and will NOT accept a 38 SPL. CTG. Butt has a lanyard ring. The yoke cutout, yoke and side plate have matching assy. numbers. Behind the left trigger guard are crossed swords with 1,2 & 8 in the gaps. A single line address is on the right side with a logo on the sideplate.
Is this some type of transition with commercial stocks and a lanyard ring?
Is the indistinct "B" on the yoke a mis-stamp?
Approx. ship date? Commercial or Military use?
Anything else I should look for?
Thanks
Bob
 
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Not a transition. If there is no V prefix to the serial number it is from early to mid-1940, and would be a British contract .38/200 M&P. At that time, Carbonia bluing and checkered diamond stocks with medallions would be correct. Those proof stampings indicate it was released by the British for commercial sale. The only real problem possibility is that the barrel may have been shortened. Remeasure it., shouldn't be 4", but possible. You might also see if the same SN is stamped on the back surface of the right grip panel.
 
Right stock has matching s/n. Barrel is 4" cylinder face to muzzle. All lettering is centered on barrel. Not cut off. Did S&W put lanyard rings on commercial models?
Bob
 
Bob, S&W did put lanyard rings on some of their revolvers. You see them on N frame guns made before and after WWI such as the .455 MKII first and second models, commercial .455 MKIIs, .44 hand ejectors and military and commercial 1917s. I suppose you could request lanyard rings for M&P guns although, from what I've seen, they aren't as common excepting the lend/lease and Victory models.
 
A real 4" 38/200 is a great find! It might be worth a letter just because it seems to be a very earlier contract gun. Ended up in the UK, but may have gotten there in a roundabout way. I believe this one might possibly be from one of the first South African contract orders which were diverted to Great Britain after they left S&W if memory serves. Someone on this forum undoubtedly has a much greater knowledge of the SA "Victory" contracts. It might be worth a search on the forum for South African Victory threads (although this would really be a "Pre-Victory").

Rick
 
Wasn't Great Britain buying whatever S&W could supply during the 1940-41 time frame? Maybe guns assembled using whatever barrels were in stock were shipped out? But would they have had a 4" 38 S&W barrel in inventory? Might be interesting to slug the bore. Could be marked as a 38 S&W but be bored .357".
 
I'd say at that time, 4" barrels would be unusual, but not impossible. A factory letter would be required to determine the actual barrel length at the time of shipment, and also to where it was first sent. As mentioned, collectors would call this one a pre-Victory, that is a military .38/200 M&P shipped prior to the Victory (V) series revolvers beginning in June 1942.

It's often stated that the first pre-Victories manufactured under British orders began at a serial number of about 685000 in March 1940. The earliest contract was an order for South Africa, but most of those revolvers were diverted to other destinations. And there are some reports that some considerably earlier serial stamped frames in S&W inventory were finished and shipped against the early British Commonwealth contracts, so there may be some fairly low numbered pre-Victories out there.
 
Note that another posting just popped up here a few minutes ago saying that the South African order .38/200s had 4" barrels.
 
Pictures added.
 

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Looks correct to me. The 4" 38/200 revolvers are not seen every day, but they do exist. Even though it is not in high graded condition, I think I would letter this gun.
If you do request a letter, be patient. Roy is way behind. But he will get to it when he is caught up. Let us know what you find out, please.
 
Yes, the first South African orders were for 4" barrels; all had lanyard rings and commercial finish. The guns that were diverted to Britain were diverted AFTER they left the factory, and the diversion was agreed to by the SA Prime Minister Jan Smuts following an urgent request by the British Government. A factory letter will say that the gun went to SA, but this is not true. All S&Ws that actually reached SA were stamped with the Arrow in U propery mark and a rack number. Well, not every one; I have a 5" lend lease that has a rack number, but no Arrow in U. The armourer who did the stamping must have taken a tea break and never finished the job!

Peter
 
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