I have a 38 S&W. Special CTG "38-44 Heavy Duty Revolver" in its original box. I'm trying to determine its age and value, if possible. It does not seem to have the typical markings as I have read. The top of the barrel reads: Smith & Wesson, Springfield MASS U.S.A, Patented FEB.6.06.SEP.14.09.DEC.29.14. In the ejector rod reservior there's a "3" left of the parts number. Behind the cylinder hinge is "875". It has a 5 inch barrel. 4 screws right side. Ideas?

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Welcome to the Forum.

Your revolver is actually very different. First, it is built on the heavy .44 frame, known as the N frame. Next, the condition of your Heavy Duty is very, very nice. Last, the HD has fixed sights.

Your HD is worth quite a bit more the target K frame that the OP bought. It was probably shipped in the 1930s. What is the serial number on the butt?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Excellent specimen of the .38/44 Heavy Duty in an enviably well-preserved box. That is a valuable package.

The "3" you see in the ejector shroud is actually an unevenly stamped "B." That's the marker that indicated the gun was to be given a blue rather than nickel finish in its final stage.

The first post here was originally embedded in a thread about a 1902 Target. Gil's comments reflect its original environment and refer to the original post in the other thread.

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David Wilson

Looks like 43741 from the photo

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James Redfield
LM #497

Beautiful HD!

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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

Or 45741. There should be a white piece of tape on the bottom of the box where the serial number was written. Probably a 1935 ship date. Very nice HD!
Bill

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

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38-44heavyduty.com

Serial number 43741 would date to the summer of 1934.

Bill

Bill - you'd be best for determining value. Please help us all learn what it takes ($$ ) to collect these pretty pre war gems when they show up for sale.
THANKS!

I've never seen such a nice specimen with its box in such good condition before. Thanks for posting.

Very nice condition. I am quite envious!

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SWCA 1646

The very first N Frame was offered in 1908 in 44 special. Right? It was called the new century revolver and the tripple lock.

The 38 s&w is different than the 38 special, please bear with me on this forgive me for being new in this area. A 38/44 would be like the 38special? Same diameter round? The 38s&w is larger diameter round and won't fit in the 38 special cylinder? Right?

They shoot the 38 specials out of the 38/44. They designed the 357 magnum purposely with the longer case so it couldn't be shot in the 38 special guns.

Ok open mouth insert both feet I'm reading the OP too quickly.

VM,
I would need more info before I can render any kind of estimate. I would like to see the other side, close ups of all surfaces of the gun, do the grips number to the gun, does the box number to the gun, look at the grip frame for markings etc. Once you have all that visual information, you can make a fairly good estimate. If it all checks out, it will bring a premium price.
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

BigBill-

The .38-44 is a high velocity, high pressure loading of the .38 Special. Quite a bit hotter than most modern Plus P ammo. It had a 150-158 grain bullet at some 1150 FPS. Some lots may have been more like 1100 FPS. I've seen both figures in print.

That's probably from a pressure test barrel, but Keith and others easily reached such velocities in actual guns, with handloads. Keith recommended his heavy .38-44 handload for the .357 Combat Magnum, too, as it'd kill well without the pressure of some .357 factory loads, which were hard to extract.

But I believe based on experience that hot ammo was only part of the problem, as I've owned Model 19's that had chambers bored so loose that they accepted FIRED .38 S&W (not Special) cases! (That brass was fired in a .38-200 M&P with six-inch bbl., probably sent to the UK in 1940.)

Extraction with .357 ammo in M-19's was so hard that I wrote to Speer, and they advised that S&W quality control was then so poor (the Bangor-Punta years) that I buy a Colt MK III Trooper. The Ruger Security-Six was then new and an unknown quantity. However, I later owned Ruger DA .357's and none ever gave extraction problems. (Or any other problems.)

Other M-19's and my current M-66-3 did work well, though.

I wrote to S&W in the mid 1960's (yes, I was very young, but had an early start in guns) and Fred Miller, Sales Mgr., told me that I could fire .38-44 ammo in an M&P/Model 10 and not blow up the gun. But using it much would shake the gun loose much sooner than if I used normal .38 Special ammo. He strongly suggested that I buy a .38-44 or a .357 if I expected to fire .38-44 ammo often.

While in the USAF, there was concern that the issued M-41 ball .38 ammo was so lightly loaded that it might lack stopping power. So, my base at Denver (Lowry AFB) bought some .38 ammo off base. It was marked as .38 Hi-Velocity. I think it was for the .38-44. We were carrying a mix of Combat Masterpiece/M-15's, Victory Models scrounged from the Navy, and a few Colt Official Police and Commando revolvers. We fired wadcutter rounds to qualify. I don't know if anyone actually shot any of that Hi-Velocity ammo, but if they did, no accidents resulted, or we'd have been told.

I don't think that .38-44 ammo is still loaded, but Buffalo Bore and maybe others do load a Plus P round that is as potent. That is one reason why I disagree with Saxon Pig that all Plus P ammo is safe in all .38 Specials.

I hope this helps you and others who may be curious about the matter. The true .38-44 revolvers were discontinued about 1966. They were made on the .44 (N) frame, but chambered for .38 Special.

If you'll skip a movie or something, you'll have money to buy a copy of, "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith or Boothroyd's, "The Handgun" and this and other rather basic questions will be answered for you.

Thanks for the info. I need those two books next.

I guess there is no brass offered for the 38/44 round?

Is it true the 38/44 ballastics was 1400fps / 700ftlbs of energy? At that time the 357 just broke 1,000fps.

You use regular .38spl brass.

No specific 38/44 brass that I have ever seen. Use regular quality brass or nickel cases and load away and enjoy it! Kyle

No you have to use 38 spl brass.

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38-44heavyduty.com

"Welcome to the Forum.

Your revolver is actually very different. First, it is built on the heavy .44 frame, known as the N frame. Next, the condition of your Heavy Duty is very, very nice. Last, the HD has fixed sights.

Your HD is worth quite a bit more the target K frame that the OP bought. It was probably shipped in the 1930s. What is the serial number on the butt?"


Muley Gil;

Thanks for the info. The number on the butt is 43741.

The weapon used to belong to my uncle. He was a FBI agent in the 60’s, 70”s & 80’s. It’s thought his father was also in some sort of law enforcement. Sadly, my uncle has alzheimer’s and is no longer able to share the details, so how and why the weapon was originally acquired is unknown. It was given to my father for whom I am doing a little research.

Bill;

I'll work on getting a more complete group of pictures, and check the grip frame for additional markings. To my unprofessional it appears to have been rarely fired- if at all.

Sadly, it is not perfect. On its opposite side there are scratches associated with someone's attempt to remove a screw. Other than that this weapon is pristine. It was actually painful to turn the weapon over for the first time and these scratches marring what looks (or looked) to be a mint piece.

I'll shoot you a value number. 1800.00 - 2200.00.

Beautiful gun and box! That one certainly is a keeper.
Is there any paperwork or tools in the box??

As of today, I think you are dead on as far the value goes depending on the severity of the scratch.
It sure seems like these pre war 38/44's (HD + OD's) are climbing in value. I think they are somewhat riding on the RM's coattails much like the Model 28's are to the Model 27's. It's hard to find a good one in the $1,000.00 range anymore.

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Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435

Here are some follow up photos.

There is a hand written tag on the bottom of the box; faded but sufficiently legible to link the box with this 38. The hand grips look like walnut and are original. The same identification is imprinted. No other identifying numbers on the grip frame. I tried to get a good shot of the scratching. There aren't any other associated documentation or tool kits, sorry.

Let me know if there's a particular angle/ part that you need better visualized.

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Oh No. Those scratches on the right side plate from someone
trying to do something to the screw have dropped it from
a 2200 dollar gun to maybe 1100-1300 on a good day.
Most all collectors would steer clear of it now.
Ouch !!! Man thats a bummer.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

The grips look excellent 400-500 $. The box is excellent and is a 400-500 value. The hd with non matching grips would bring 600-700 for a shooter. Your still at 1400-1700 if separated.

very nice HD

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

Seeing those scratches makes me kinda sad.

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Get off my lawn!

Please do not separate the parts if all the numbers match,They stayed together for this long.You may get a hundred bucks less but breaking something like this up is a crime in my eyes.I agree about the scratch though,It is one of the worst I have ever seen....

WOW, what a beautiful package that unfortunately some bubba messed up trying to remove a screw. It is still a great package and I too would not separate it. The scratch is a bummer but is part of the history of the gun.

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James Redfield
LM #497