At the last show i was shown a S&W that had a ball detente on the bottom of the crane. Never noticed that before.Guess the question is why and is it factory
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detente on crane
- Thread starter walter o
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Pre-WWII N frames, including the original triple lock, had a cylinder detent inside the yoke. It holds the cylinder open to facilitate reloading. They might have also put it on other models but someone else will have to speak up. If you saw a ball detent in front of the cylinder in the yoke that locks the cylinder, that is a modification and is not factory.
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Some recent special production guns that lack the ejector rod end lock have a ball detent on the yoke installed from the factory; if it was an older gun it was an aftermarket modification. I think it was popular with PPC revolver conversions.
Edit to add: Sorry, the OP wrote the "bottom" of the 'crane' - my mistake.
Edit to add: Sorry, the OP wrote the "bottom" of the 'crane' - my mistake.
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There is/was a range command (which I do not recall) calling for competitors to open their guns and lay them on the table. The purpose of the detent was to help keep them open. So says Joe Miller-----who has forgotten more than I know about bullseye shooting---back in the day.
In the for what it's worth department, my observation is the detent disappeared from the N frame models just prior to WW II, and from the K frame models a few years earlier.
Ralph Tremaine
In the for what it's worth department, my observation is the detent disappeared from the N frame models just prior to WW II, and from the K frame models a few years earlier.
Ralph Tremaine
I have a 38/44 Heavy Duty manufactured in 1931 and it has the detent. I have a K-22 Outdoorsman made in 1936 and it does not have the detent.
I also observed another 38/44 HD from 1931 where the detent was missing, but the indent was still there where the ball used to be.
I wonder how common it is where the detent falls out or is removed.
I also observed another 38/44 HD from 1931 where the detent was missing, but the indent was still there where the ball used to be.
I wonder how common it is where the detent falls out or is removed.
rburg
Member
OK, back to basics. A detent is a hole or relieved area. The detent was in the frame, down where the crane pivots. Inside the crane is/was a hole. Just a hole drilled into the crane. With the crane closed (cylinder closed, too) the position was straight up from the bottom.
Inside the hole was a spring and then a pin. Maybe 3/8s of an inch long. The spring tended to stick in the hole. Often the pin came out at high velocity, and usually downward. If you were lucky you felt it hit your ankle or shoe. At least you knew it was something leaving the gun.
Often the spring remained stuck in the hole. I developed a really good cheap way to recover the spring from the hole. I found an old and really cheap fish hook. I straightened it out and shoved it in. Out came the spring, stuck to the hook. The spring and hole are then easy to clean with any aerosol solvent. You can make a new pin the right diameter just by purchasing a numbered drill bit and cutting it off the right length. Then hold it with a pair of pliers and grind the end to a round shape.
I'm not aware of it being an option, but I've seen both K and N frame guns with the pin installed.
Inside the hole was a spring and then a pin. Maybe 3/8s of an inch long. The spring tended to stick in the hole. Often the pin came out at high velocity, and usually downward. If you were lucky you felt it hit your ankle or shoe. At least you knew it was something leaving the gun.
Often the spring remained stuck in the hole. I developed a really good cheap way to recover the spring from the hole. I found an old and really cheap fish hook. I straightened it out and shoved it in. Out came the spring, stuck to the hook. The spring and hole are then easy to clean with any aerosol solvent. You can make a new pin the right diameter just by purchasing a numbered drill bit and cutting it off the right length. Then hold it with a pair of pliers and grind the end to a round shape.
I'm not aware of it being an option, but I've seen both K and N frame guns with the pin installed.
gordonrick
Member
How do you think I found out about the detent on my m1917 Brazilian? Sproing!
I have never observed one yet and I always look. But I would not be surprised to find a transitional with the cyl hold open pin-detent. Models with a detent dimple and hole that should have them, are often found with the pin and spring missing, frozen in place or with non-factory replacement parts.
Here's what I've gathered about them and doubt that it's complete:
The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the .32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model. After the second model it was dropped from the ‘I’ frames but was used and continued on pre war K frames* beginning on the 38 M&P Model of 1902, and last used on the 1902-1st change, and all pre war N frame HEs[My 1917 #139230 has it.]**. An example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again.
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Mule88
Member
The new 69 I purchased came with the ball detent on it.
Yes----on the transitional 357----one of them at least. I can't speak for any other transitional N frames.
Ralph Tremaine
Pisgah
Member
Détente - the easing of hostility or strained relations, esp. between countries.
I guess if you show enough revolvers in the right place, at the right time, you might get this...
Ralph,
Thanks for that confirmation! Knowing how all things S&W transitioned, it had to be; another validation of the interesting uniqueness of transitional models.
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Driftwood Johnson
SWCA Member
Very common. Most of the time, if it is missing it's because somebody didn't know it was there and when they pulled the crane out it went 'sproing'. Parts like that always tend to wind up in the most inaccessible spot in the shop.
rburg
Member
Well, I'd like to argue that point. The round pin sometimes ends up on the floor, right where you're going to plant your heal as you walk out. And even if it looks gummy, it'll roll under your heal. You may stay standing or not. But its like a murphy's law. And you're in the crosshairs.
05CarbonDRZ
SWCA Member
My 1919 shipped 1917 serial number 153876 has the detent on the Yoke.
I found my first one when I tried to put the yoke back in. The pin was sticking up and prevented the yoke from being inserted fully. This was early in my pre-war S&W accumulating and I was sure I had destroyed the gun by disassembling it and not knowing about the pin. The pin was not lost and I fumbled my way to putting it back together to my great relief.
If anyone finds themselves with a need to reproduce the pin and spring its' simple. The pin/ plungers range in length from.540” to .570” no matter what frame size and those pins I have miked are .100” to .101”.
The drill bit shank of that diameter works well with one end rounded, and any coil spring of enough tension to hold open the cyl that fits in the hole.
The drill bit shank of that diameter works well with one end rounded, and any coil spring of enough tension to hold open the cyl that fits in the hole.
According to the mysterious engineer, cited by Neal & Jinks, who kept notes on engineering changes, "March 10, 1919. Order to discontinue the yoke stop in all models by J. H Wesson."
