Hello everybody,
I have just received a M & P revolver in caliber .38 S&W with 5" barrel. Everything looks alright and all numbers are matching. Yes, the grips also have the correct number. The SN is 774191 which indicates that the gun must be from 1941 or close. Much to my surprise there is no V - S - or SV with the number. The finish is bright blue, maybe not the high gloss finish we know, but not the wartime dull blue. So far it looks as if it would be easy to learn more about the history of that specific gun. But to me there are a lot of open questions which result from the marking of the revolver.
I will list up the "specialties" now:
Let's start with the left side of the gun. Just behind the cylinder latch there is a earlier marking removed (see the spot). There is only a E left at the lower end of the spot, the E's open end showing in direction of the grips. The next marking is on the barrel just under the barrel pin. There are 2 crossed flags.According to the book of Charles W. Pate this marking was only used by the British for the .45 Colt Automatic pistol (page 108). On the barrel we find the usual marking Smith & Wesson. Under the barrel we just find the SN - nothing else. Now let's go to the top of the gun. On the barrels top is the usual marking with patent dated until Dec.29.14 and the address. In the yoke area are the assembling numbers. The top strap has no property markings. Now we com to the top of the back strap just where the web of your hand would be. There is the following mark: 16 BW 705 (the 705 is not very clear and could be a different number . Only the 7 is for sure. Now to the right side of the gun: The barrel has the .38 S&W caliber marking as usual. At the place where the barrel meets the frame, we find a coat of arms with a star in a circle on top. Just underneath the MADE IN USA marking in front of the screw which secures the cylinder we find another strange (for me) marking. From left to right: The same coat of arms with star on top - the letters PSF with the star on top- and the Roman numbers XXII. Another mark I could find is on the left side unter grip - an Y. That's all I could find - enough to think about? I'm very happy with that gun because the finsih, apart from the removed mark on the left, is 90% or more. The case color hardening looks wonderful. I hope you enjoy the added pictures and can give me some help in finding out more about the gun. A factory letter would not help a lot because it does not describe the life of the gun after it was shipped from the factory.
Any help would be appreciated.

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Yours likely shipped in May or June 1941 (probably the latter), and if chambered in .38 S&W it would commonly be called a pre-Victory .38/200 M&P. At that time virtually all of S&W's production was for the British Commonwealth military, as this one was. A bright blue Carbonia finish would be correct for that time, and the grips also appear to be correct. There should be a matching serial number stamped inside the right grip panel. The V-prefix "Victory" revolvers did not begin shipping until mid-1942.

Yours is a little early to have been a "Lend-Lease" revolver. The British were paying for them in gold at that time, due to U. S. "neutrality."

The .38 S&W cartridge was the official revolver caliber of the Commonwealth from the 1920s until after WWII. The British called it the ".380 Revolver, Mk2." The S&W was officially the "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, Number 2" by British military nomenclature. The factory apparently called it the ".38/200," (.38 caliber, 200 grain bullet) and you often see it referred to also as the "K-200." Both were simply shorthand names. A 5'' barrel length is the most common for these .38/200s. By the way, the WWII British .380 military Mk2 cartridge used a 178 grain FMJ bullet, not the 200 grain lead bullet used before the war (the Mk1). I have often wondered why the revolver was not called a ".38/178."

You are correct about the factory letter. It's not likely to tell you much of any value, beyond an exact shipping date and that it was likely sent to the "British Purchasing Commission, New York."

Yours appears to be missing the lanyard swivel, but those are available fairly easily. I'll leave it to others to translate the various stampings (not my area), but they are typical Commonwealth markings. Yours shows some indications of use, but is still in very good condition. Don't mess with it. Ammunition is available, but is a little difficult to find in most areas of the USA. I don't know about ammunition availability in Germany.

Thank you for your information. I was quite sure that this must be an early gun and before the Land Lease began, because of the missing V prefix. Lucky enough this gun was not as described in the auction. It was offered as an .38 Special which would have been no surprise. Many of these guns which came to Germany for police use after WW II were converted to .38 Special. However, this one differed from the sellers description and is still in the original caliber .38-200. Getting empty brass is not such a big problem and I have already found a lot for sale. I'm not sure, but I think I can use my .38 Special set of dies to reload the empties. I'm happy that this gun has the commercial finish and the correct stocks with matching number on the right grip panel. I have the lanyard ring available and will mount it to the butt. The pin is still there. The poor British had to pay in gold, I paid in Euro and not very much. So I'm better of than the British in 1941!
The next step now is to find more information about the various marking.
Thanks again
Rainer

The marks by the "Made in U.S.A." are likely Italian proofmarks and the XXII is probably the date mark for 1966. Hope that this helps.

Your 38 Special dies will not work properly to reload 38 SW ammunition as the 38 SW is a larger diameter.

__________________
John. SWCA #1586

"I'm not sure, but I think I can use my .38 Special set of dies to reload the empties."

Indeed the .38 Special sizing die can be used for .38 S&W, but it will work the brass excessively, likely leading to shortened case life. The real problem may be mouth expanding and bullet seating as the .38 S&W case is so short, and you may not be able to adjust the .38 Special dies to do those operations. I have always used .38 Super dies for loading .38 S&W, and even then, I can barely adjust the expanding and seating dies enough to work properly. I have understood 9x19mm dies will work OK, but I haven't tried them. But the problem of working the brass remains. Best if you can get a set made for the .38 S&W, or use .38 Super dies. There may be dimensional differences among die manufacturers.

Thanks for the informations - I understand.
As I have approximately 50 sets of dies on hand it could well be that one fits. Normally I would just buy a set, but I think I will not shoot very often with the gun. As I do my own bullet casting and have a lot of H&I dies for my sizing machine it may well be that I can work with what I have. If not - I buy what I need.
Rainer