A question for the many on this forum who know more about historic S&Ws than I:

Through the good offices of John Strayer, owner of the Pro-Arms Gun Shop in Live Oak, Florida, I'm now the proud owner of a 1905 M&P .38 Special, the third model Hand Ejector First Change apparently, with four inch barrel...

...and target sights.

Essentially, the forerunner by 40-some years of the Combat Masterpiece.

I may have led too sheltered a live, but none of the Target models of this vintage that I've personally seen have had the four-inch barrel.

Does anyone know how many of these revolvers were produced with both four-inch barrel AND adjustable target sights?

Ain't shot it yet, but am looking forward to it. Any input from the collectors is appreciated.

Massad

Generally, its thought that the target revolver production was close to 10% of the
total production, for the K-frame line of revolvers. This, of course, excludes the
WW2 production. This estimate of 10% is based on notes found by the historian.
One notable exception to this is the registered, and non-registered magnums, which
are all target revolvers. There is no known factory-supported estimates of target
production by barrel length. There are many known 4" K-frame target revolvers.
One of the reasons for that may be that 4" was the size for pocket revolver competition.

However, when it comes to knowing how many 4" K-frame targets exist today, there
is the issue of the rate of survival. There is no doubt that there are very few survivors
today of 4" 1899 target revolvers, and also of 1902 4" targets. The survival rate for
1905's ought to be higher than that of the two earlier models, in part because 1905's
are not as old as 1902's and 1899's .

Having said all of that, there does not seem to be a lot of 4" targets, relatively
speaking. It would seem that, maybe, one out of 10 1905 targets offered for sale
are 4". This suggests that either the factory did not reach its goal of 10%, or that
the distribution of targets within the 1905's is not even by barrel length, or that the
4" variants have suffered a very low survival rate.

The numbers work out this way. There may something like 900,000 1905's produced
between 1905 and 1940. (There are three other models sharing that serial number series:
1902's, K-22's, and K-38's.) 10% of that production would be 90,000 target revolvers.
If they were spread evenly among the 4 barrel lengths ( 4", 5", 6", and 6 1/2"), that
would be about 22,500 targets in each length. If the survival rate were 50%, 11,500 of
each would survive. We see nothing like that, so some of the control parameters must not be
correct.

Mike Priwer

Welcome back Mas. Haven't seen you post lately.

One estimate is that 10% of pre WW II M&P production had target sights. That guesstimate is probably high.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Many thanks, Mike and Gil. Looking forward to learning all I can about this sweet little revolver.

Mike, what can you tell us about that "pocket revolver competition" you mentioned?

For some time I have had the impression that target-sighted hand ejectors were never more than one percent of production in the earliest years up to 1905, slowly rising to 5-8 percent in the early 1920s. I sense a similar ramping up of production for Colt target models as well.

Most of the target sighted guns of that era that I have seen or seen referenced have 6-6.5 inch barrels, with a few fives thrown in. Fours are virtually invisible, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them were special orders. Quantity? I'm hunching here, but I would think target sighted four-inch M&Ps made before WWI could not exceed a few hundred, and quite possibly no more than several dozen.

The specimen you describe could also be a retrofit. Is there any evidence that a service revolver might have gone back to the factory at some later date to have adjustable sights installed?

I suspect you know that we'd all like to see photos, in particular close-ups of the sight components.

__________________
David Wilson

Input appreciated, DC; will see if I can't take some daylight photos tomorrow and post here.

Pix as requested. Target sights look original to me: front pedestal appears to be machined integral with barrel, adjustable rear sight almost seamlessly blended with topstrap with the classic S&W workmanship of the period. Info appreciated.

Very nice! I DO like that! I'm a big fan of M&P Target models and a 4" would be hard to beat.

__________________
Get off my lawn!

That's a 100% original 4 in. Target, with stocks that are to die for! I don't recall when I last saw one with the dual caliber stampings, if ever. It demands a factory letter ASAP ! Ed.

Massad

Here is the factory letter, from years ago, on a 4" 1905 target revolver shipped/delivered to L P Castaldini, a member of the Springfield Revolver Club back in the day. This particular gun maybe was a replacement, or addition, in 1921; I have a picture of the Club from 1914, and he is in the front row holding an earlier 4" revolver. In this letter, the historian talks about pocket pistol matches.



I've owned this gun for many years, having acquired it from the private auction of the estate of a deceased S&WCA member.

I own a pair of 1910-vintage 32-long caliber 4" K-frame target revolvers, serial-numbered in the 32-20 serial number series. This next page is the results from a
match back in those days. The yellow-highlighted entries are for the original owner of this gun. The page contains the pocket revolver competition results, and also states
that the barrel length was limited to 4 inches. Interestingly, the winner of the pocket
revolver competition, Dr Snook, was executed some years later for murdering his medical assistant.



I did a bit of google-searching, and there are pocket pistol matches to this day.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Many thanks, Mike. I'm learning even more in this thread than I had hoped!

I agree: completely original. I retract any caution that I expressed in my earlier post.

__________________
David Wilson

Hi
Massad
Here is a letter on a 1905 4 inch target that I own My gun is configured like yours, except for the front sight. I have been collecting S&W revolvers for 40 years and in that time frame I have only seen less that 20 4 inch Targets that are factory. Mike priwer originally owned the one on the letter.
Great gun and scarce.
Sent me a PM with the serial number of yours. so we can see if yours could have been in the shipment listed in the letter.
You were at my display two years ago in texas at the NRA.
Jim Fisher

Thanks, Jim, and of course I remember you; who could forget such a cool family with such cool guns?

PM going out tonight.

That a beautiful and rare revolver, congrats sir!

__________________
John
S&WCA Life Member

I don't know if this new rule for Police matches announced in the Police Catalog helped 4" target guns.

Attached Images

	Police Models 1911 insert page 2.jpg (85.4 KB, 54 views)
	Police Models 1911.jpg (102.1 KB, 25 views)

__________________
Don Mundell

Thanks folks, keep the info comin' !

The experts have given you valuable info on the little Target M&P. Great resources on the forum here.

Can tell you though that the revolver looks much better in your hand than that new plastic stuff. :-)

__________________
LEX ET ORDO

$10 per team was a significant entry fee back in 1915, equivalent to well over $200 today. I am very surprised it was that much. There must have been wealthier guys shooting on those teams.

Don

4 1/2", eh ? Ok - I'm ready with the 1899 M&P.





When and where is the next meet ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Have you removed the rear sight to see if it numbers to the Gun?

Send me the gun, I'll prep it for the next match.

__________________
Don Mundell

Don - do you use a electric grinder or a hand file to move the POI? Maybe you can bring my 4" into the center bull as well. Mike - I have to ask about the 4 1/2" barrel? Roy does not list that barrel length for the 1899, so is that one you worked on or a special order gun direct from the factory?

I do love those early walnut stocks, in both round butt & square butt.

Attached Images

	P1010007.jpg (75.8 KB, 34 views)
	P1010003.jpg (62.2 KB, 27 views)
	P1010006.jpg (69.7 KB, 27 views)

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Hi
This gun was a special order. Roy told me that much but I haven't send in a letter yet.
I guess you guys are going to force me to get in line for a letter so I guess In 4 months or so we will know who order it.
But I don't really care it shoots good enough for me. The two shots outside the 10 & 9 ring
were not the guns fault.
Jim

"The two shots outside the 10 & 9 ring were not the guns fault." Nor not necessarily yours or the ammunition's fault. The amount of statistical variation of the extreme spreads (ES) of any random set of individual 5-shot groups will average about 6:1. What that means is that if a single 5-shot group has an ES of 2", it is at least statistically possible that the next group fired could have an ES as small as 1" or as large as 6" at the same distance. Not very likely, but possible. The consequence is that you really have to fire quite a few 5-shot groups (at least 25) to get a truly statistically reliable ES average for the gun, shooter, and ammunition combination. Many may not believe it, but it's true. 10-shot groups are much better for that purpose. You need fire and average the ESs of only 5 of them to reach the same conclusion. This is because 10-shot groups are far more data-rich than 5-shot groups. A five-shot group has 10 shot pairs. A 10-shot group has 45. At least 225 shot pairs total must be used to get into the realm of high statistical confidence levels (95+%). Firing a single 5-shot group provides essentially no indication of grouping capability, and firing 2 or 3 groups and taking an average is not much better.

Wow. That is one beautiful revolver, Massad. Very nice addition to your collection.

__________________
What would Jim Cirillo do?

Gary

Its one that I worked on, and that the factory could have offered if they wanted to.
They sold a good number of 4 1/2" registered magnums, so there was some demand
for this length.

Regards, Mike