I need help in trying to identify .38 caliber S&W K frames without having to carry around a Roy Jinks book. As you can see by the attached picture, I'm having trouble verifying what it is. GM states this gun to be a model 10. I don't think it is. First there is the front sight, it is not ramped. Then there is the "Made in USA" stamp on the right side. I believe the Model 10 had 4 lines starting in 1957. Can you help me with some quick visual pointers?
Example: Pinned barrels stopped around 1982.
Diamond grips stopped around 1968.
Screw in front of trigger guard eliminated around 1962.
Elimination of top side-plate screw around 1955.
Half moon front side changed to ramp ????.
Made in USA stamped changed to 4 lines ????.
Changes to location and size of S&W logo.
I know the serial number helps with identification. But if you don't have access to the serial number then visual markers are all I can go by.
Any guidance will be helpful.

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I know the order in which I look at a K-frame is something like this (which I have never articulated, or really even consciously thought about until now):

[you have mentioned most of these - and this is far from exhaustive, it's jus the quick look that I take]

Look at the front sight - if half-moon, it's pre-model number

Look at the grips - go they look original? Round or square butt?Is their wear consistent with the wear on the gun? If so, based on style, you can tell whether they are 00, 10s, 20s, 30s, sharp shoulder magnas, diamond magnas, etc.

Look at serial numbers - I look for no-prefix (pre-ww2), V-prefix (wartime) S-prefix (1946-8), C (1948 - 67) or D prefix (1968-77). [these are generalizations]

I look at the 1 versus 4-line frame stamping, then the ejector knob style.

I think your idea of a tool to help make identification is great one.

One other thing I have very recently done. I loaded Kindle on my smart phone, then, even though I already have a hard copy of the SCSW, downloaded the kindle version to my phone. It has all of the same content and pictures. I am basically carrying a SCSW every where I go now.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Happy New Year!

Jim

You're right, it's an early Post war Transitional 38 M&P with the pre war style long action hammer. I wouldn't even call that one a Pre model 10!
Pre war style service stocks with sq cornered borders on checkering field, with what could be flat silver pre war medallions. Has the pre war LERK (large ejector rod knob). I bet it has the cross pin hole in the grip frame for a butt swivel, (not the large hole in the butt) and a pre war double pinch cyl lock bolt thumb latch.

Short throw hammer (speed hammer/speed lock) on the fixed sight K frame .38s #S990184, 4/7/48

4 four line address block order was issued in April of 1948 containing the phrase "marcas registradas".

Front sight changed to ramp 1952

NOTE: This: "Screw in front of trigger guard eliminated around 1962." is only true for K & N frames. 1953 for I and J frames.

Logo on side plate, post war (these can vary).

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Here's my entire sheet you can carry with you:

Pre 1961 Key dates of changes & Notes:

• Factory oak cases date from the mid-late 1890s to the early 1900s.
• Serial number on the forestrap of models with stocks that cover the butt began with the 1st Model Single-Shot, Model of 1901.
• Smith & Wesson issued their "guarantee" that smokeless was OK for use in their guns in 1907 so long as it was factory ammo. From the 1906 Catalog...& From the 1907 Catalog. pace40
Circassian Walnut stocks ended Pre WW I
• "Beginning in 1893, factory produced pearl stocks and ivory stocks had small round S&W medallions inlaid, to distinguish them from non-factory stocks." Supica states. Gustave Young is the S&W engraver that designed the S&W monogram logo that we all know and love today! Factory engraved 1903 first change target AND it’s likely the work of Oscar Young!!!
• Gold plated over brass recessed stock medallions on concave premium stocks like MOP and ivory, but not on wood stocks until 1910 thru 1920. No medallions in wood stocks, ~ 1920 until Gold plate over brass medallions ordered reinstated But in ‘convex’ wood stocks 2/11/1929, 3/18/29 changed to flush mounted, flat gold plated, and then changed April 1929 to flush mounted, flat chrome plated over brass. .22/32 HFTs with a serial number below ~#258000 (right after WW I), would have come with concave checkered two-screw extension target stocks with gold plated brass medallions. If above that number they had the new ‘standard’, concave Regulation Police stocks and deep dish gold plated brass medallions on rebated grip frame in the late 'teens. The concave target stocks w/medallions were optional. By the early '20s the standard was convex RP stocks w/o medallions and convex target stocks w/o medallions as optional until 1923 (see below).
• "No-Logo" guns from 1917-1920/21 (*see note below)
• Heat treated cylinders by early 1920s (**see note below)
• Cartridge size stamped on left side of barrel, nothing on right side. And c. this same period, cartridge stamp moved to right side and S&W on left.
• Forcing cones on HE barrels did not exist until the engineering order of August 22, 1922 mandated the forcing cone for HE's.
• One line “MADE IN USA” in May 1922 until 1948, and replaced with the 4 line address. And beware of 4 line addresses on factory re-finished revolvers; for awhile after the war, S&W was re-stamping the one line address with the 4 line until Roy Jinks put a stop to it.
• Serrated triggers and straps order change August 14, 1923, on all K frame Target Model .38 & .32 Winchester revolvers.
• 22/32 HFT's change order came through Aug.29,1923 from sq RP convex stocks back to 2 screw target stocks but with convex tops, and w/o medallions, and the Paine* w/U-Notch to Patridge w/Square Notch. The next day for the Single Shot as well as the 32 & 38 Target Models. * is a style designed by "Chevalier" Ira Paine, a renowned pistol shooter of the 1880s era.
• " REG.U.S.PAT.OFF.” stamp on Hammer and trigger, K & N frames; not a patent notice on mechanical design, but for the color case hardening process, ordered in June ’26. It was dropped in WW II production.
• Serrated Tangs on N frame Target guns began with the engineering order of Oct 17, 1927. See grooved triggers for Ns below
• Order to replace 'mushroom' knob, with the ‘Barrel’ style (single milling cut under barrel), on all HE models, 1/22/27.
• Bright blue change order for all blue guns on 2/11/29, S&W 1857-1945, N&J, pg. 235
• Serrated trigger order change March 18, 1929 by F. H. Wesson on all .32-20, .38, and.44 Hand Ejectors.
• Stock #s, stamped since 1857, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929 (except hard rubbers which can be penciled, stamped or scratched on).
• Recessed Gold plate over brass reinstated BUT in 'convex' wood stocks 2/11/1929, changed 3/18/29 to flush mounted, flat gold plated, then changed April 1929 to flush mounted, flat chrome plated over brass. Large chrome medallion K stocks c. 1930 and serial numbers in the 61X,XXX only. All stock tops convex from then on except for the “Classics” models.
• "Black Thursday", Oct. 24, 1929, stock market crash.
• The I-frame serial numbers were at a little over 500,000 by 1930
• The hammer block was added to the 1917 model at about #185,000 in 1933
• Pre war rear sight addition of elevation check screw, earliest observed on K22 #646390, shipped in 4/1934
• Small logo on the left side of the frame ended after 1936,
• S&W revolvers had large logos on the sideplate from early 1937. There was a change order in December 1936 relocating the company trademark to the sideplate. The first guns so marked were shipping in early 1937. This is true of I, K and N frames. Guns whose frames were made before early 1937 have the small logo on the left, frames made after that should have the large logo on the sideplate and some have both!
• Stock screw C.O. to .125”upper limit-44 (#5 NF)(actually measure .122”) from .122-44 3/4/1942
• K frame Military & Police pressed hammer stud replaced threaded type per order issued on January 18, 1946
• Barrel extractor rod knob deleted from barrel lengths of 4", 5" & 6" with change order issued on October 4, 1946. 2” barrels had the knurled end (straight rod) from their introduction pre war.
• Safety hammer block on .22 and .32 I frames at #536,685 1946, .38 S&W 1948-49
• 4 four line address block order was issued in April of 1948 containing the phrase "marcas registradas". (details at bottom of page)
• Nickel plated over brass, curved medallions following WW II
• Short throw hammer (speed hammer/speed lock) on fixed sight K frame .38s #S990184, 4/7/48
• Plastic or steel stock medallions in I frame stocks due to Korean War brass shortage, ’50 to ‘51
• Front sight changed to ramp 1952, M&P model
• K22 Masterpiece .125(1/8") front sight standard, 1/10" deleted 1952. SCSW 3rd edition pg 121. K130XXX and K140XXX (January to April 1952) the 1/10" sights were discontinued and the 1/8" became "standard".
• Target hammer (.500”): became available as an option in c. 1949 on K frames, Jan. 13, 1950 on N frames. I/J target hammers introduced on the 22/32 Model of 1953 Kit Gun and Target models. Much later carried over to J frame center fire target model 36. See 1957 for I/J frame wide trigger below.
• Target trigger K & N (.500”) in early 1955 until between 1980-99. Sometime much later than 1955 the .400” grooved target and smooth combat trigger introduced. First Year for Target Trigger, Hammer, Grips? “I remember having smooth [wide] triggers put in my N frames back in the late 60's.” Roy Jinks.
• Front sight blade pinned tang is .060", exposed part .100 or .125" thick until c. 1950s, then full thickness throughout.
• Eliminate upper sideplate screw change order 1955, 4th screw on I RP, J, & 5th on K frames; 1956, the 4th screw on I frames, 5th on N frames.
• 6 groove tangs to 10 groove; K frame 38s, K256XXX shipped June '56 with 6 grooves and K271XXX July '56 with 10 grooves; N-frame change occurred in mid-1956 at approximately serial number S166700.
• “Coke” stocks with Black washer were specific to .44 Magnum thru the 29-2 models and early years of the Model 57; special order only on pre 24s, 27s, etc., 1956 until 1967-68.
• Soft Fitting Operation eliminated the on May 1, 1957 which deleted stamping the serial # on the barrel, cyl & yoke.
• Model designation stamping ordered June 12, 1957 and Model 10s were stamped 1st c. Sept. 1957 because they moved the fastest.
• 1957 period - optional I&J frame .400” grooved target trigger was offered followed c. 1984 by the .312" grooved and smooth trigger.
• Target sight update for all revolvers May 29, 1958 change order: change from 6 to 12 clicks for one complete revolution. Windage screw: Add .286 Radius crown and relocate plunger hole, Elevation nut: Add .286 Rad crown and relocate plunger hole. Reason: finer adjustment.
• 1959/60 Hole in the grip frame disappeared: used to secure it during manufacturing, (S196000 for N-frames). Doc44

Post 1961 Key dates of changes & Notes:

1962 – J frames only (c. #295,000 on the Chiefs Spl.), the hammer to spring strut junction changed from ball/socket to the fork/pin.
1965 - Bangor Punta on boxes and paperwork.
1967 – Relocation of the rear sight front tang screw forward,14-3, 15-3 & 18-3.
1966 - change from 3rd style flat latch to standard thumbpiece on J frames and probably Airweight K frames.
1968 - delete diamond around escutcheon October 11, 1965 and escutcheon nut on Magnas January 11, 1966 and marked the beginning of the change to stocks without the diamond. Magnas w/o diamond reported as early as 1966. 1968 - Order to delete the diamond on NT and KT stocks December 28, 1967
1973 - Stock med washers (circles) changed from black to stainless and the countersunk silver screw escutcheons to flat brass
1977 change from gas ring on yoke to cyl and back again 10-7 & 8, 14-4, 15-4 & 18-4, etc.
1979 - Stock numbering ceased, (with the Model 520 being one of the last models w/#d stocks although seldom matched the gun!)
1980 – New style extractor star, serial # no longer stamped on it.
1981-1999Trigger .400” smooth or grooved (K, L & N frames always shared triggers) end of .500” trigger
1982 - eliminate pinned barrels and recessed chambers (on models that had them).
1983 - begin using 3 alpha/4 numeric serial numbers.
1984 - Lear Siegler on boxes and paperwork.
1984-5 Stock washers eliminated.
1984-89 – J frames, 1st .312” wide smooth combat trigger became standard; .500” K&N frame and .400” J frame grooved triggers deleted.
1986 - Wide smooth .312” combat trigger became standard, (J & K models)
1987 - S&W purchased by Tompkins PLC.
1988 - New yoke retention screw.
1995-96 - MIM parts introduction starting with modern style thumbpiece with shaved off lower half, date varies by model. Delete sq butt N frames.
1996 - New ratchet shape.
1996 - August, JM (J Magnum) frame introduced
1997-8 – MIM hammer and frame mounted firing pin (date varies by model), delete serrated tang, cyl stop stud
2001 - Internal lock and fired case inclusion began

Smith and Wesson dates of change are never absolute and there was most always a transition period for changes. The date of production and the date of shipment from the factory will vary from a short time to quite a long time. A 'letter' will pinpoint the ship date but only the features of a gun will help pinpoint the actual production period.

NOTES:

*S&W Logo: “I believe the years for "No-Logo" guns is 1917-1920/21.
“We see large logos on the Brit contract 455's thru late 1916. We see logos on the large batch of 455 TL's built in late 1916 to clean up parts and sold commercially.
“Production started on the 1917 in March, 17, and they have no logos. S&W was constantly hounded for more production by the Gov't. Eventually, using the possibility of Bolshevik inspired labor problems, the Gov't seized the [S&W] factory in Aug, 18. The machine for rolling logos had long been inactive by then, and POSSIBLY converted to some other use or pushed into a corner and buried. S&W does not get control again till Jan, 1919. We see little and slow production thru most of 1919. It gets better in 1920. Guns shipped in 1919 and 1920 usually lack logos. Some guns shipped in 1921 MAY lack them.
Regards,
Lee Jarrett” S&W 32 Long

“The presence or absence of the logo may be related to the demands (or whims) of daily production management rather than front-office policy. My early .32 RP from May 1917 has no logo on either side, but my two early .38 RPs (SNs below 200) both have the sideplate logo. These are all pictured higher up in this thread.”
David Wilson Early 38 Regulation Police

**Heat Treated Cyls: There are approximate serial #s by model. Exp. 22/32 & 32s by c. #321000, 38 S&Ws by c. #20000.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanx for the great information. I knew I could count on the experts on this forum. I do have Kindle on my phone with many handgun references on it. I even went out to upgrade my phone to a bigger display just so I could read the manuals.

I wanted this information because looking at handgun sales on the internet is confusing. A quick reference guide will help when all I have to go by is the picture posted on the web. GM is a good place to shop, if you pay attention to what they say about the gun. I have found numerous errors in their descriptions. When in doubt I even call their customer service to clarify what they got. Dixie Guns and the Hyatt store have some good buys but again having a good reference always comes in handy.

I'm working on a good collection of .38s from S&W. The oldest I have is from 1909, an M&P Model 1905 3rd change. I am focusing on the different varieties. I also have one from 1918, 1930, a pre-victory, along with a Victory. I also have one from 1951 as well as a target masterpiece from 1955.

Again thanx for the info.

Well unless that one is overpriced, I'd get it. It looks pretty nice and hard one to find that nice. Plus it'll fill one of the few holes you have left in the pre models.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I pick it up next Tuesday

Jim,

As always you've been a huge help to our OP (walkcubs) but you've left me with a question . . . without a serial number how can we tell it an early post-war and not a late pre-war? The long hammer throw, silver medallion service stocks, and barrel-shaped (LERK) ejector rod all had me guessing an M&P from the 30s . . . likely in the 6XX,XXX s/n range. Virtually all of the early post-war M&Ps I've seen have the pre-war style magna stocks.

Also a quick edit . . . I think you meant the short throw hammer started on M&Ps (not K38s) at s/n S990184 on 4/7/48.

Russ

Hi Russ,

Thank you for the kind comments, they may not be deserved in this case. I may have rushed to judgment and am trying to reconstruct my thought process now! I think I convinced myself that the stock medallions were post war curved nickel. In short I made a leap that may be incorrect. You may be right, a late 1930s pre war!

I'm afraid my personal notes in shorthand got me in trouble on the "short throw hammer started on M&Ps (not K38s) at s/n S990184 on 4/7/48". My meaning was fixed sight K frame .38s.

Thank you for taking me to task. The older I get, the more I seem to need help from others.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hey, that's true for all of us . . . the beauty of this forum is our collective knowledge and everyone's willingness to learn and share.

In your case you have a huge hard drive filled with so much knowledge that your I.O (input/output) buffer can't keep up

Best wishes for a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!

Russ

I picked this one up. She is in remarkable shape. All original with matching serial numbers including the grips. Serial No. 6727XX. From what I can tell she was made around 1937. Based on large logo on right side and close proximity to another one I have serial numbered 6302XX (1930).

6727XX would probably have shipped any time in the 1938-39 period. I show on my listing some nearby SNs in both years. However, 1937 could be a possibility, even though I don't show a close SN as shipping in 1937.

6302XX (1930): Do you have a letter dating shipment? From my list I'd say it could be either 1930 or 1931.

Thanx for the dates. I don't have any paperwork on the 1930ish gun. I did attach photos to show both of them. Except for the S&W logos, they could be twins. The left one is the one I just picked up.

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