LATE PRODUCTION OR POSTWAR COMMERCIAL VICTORY

nuguy · #1 02-01-2015, 05:44 PM

I picked this one up this weekend at a LGS. I don't know what category it falls into for sure, but I thought I would post and see what info comes my way. It is of course a 4 inch barrel blued victory, S/N SV 805991. The revolver is still all numbers matching including the grips. The side plate does have the small s stamped by the rear side plate screw (tried to show in picture). The gun is solid, good timing and lockup. It does however have a finish problem that I overlooked, because I wanted the gun to go with my S prefix M&P. Looks like something got on it in the trigger guard and but area that lifted some of the blue.

DWalt · #2 02-01-2015, 05:59 PM

It's an SV Victory commercial. Evidently, S&W had quite a few SV-serialed frames (having the improved hammer block design) in inventory stock at the time the war ended in late 1945, and they were made up at that time in civilian style having blued frames and barrels with Magna stocks, including some using pre-war Magnas. I do not think your Magnas are pre-war, but a better picture, plus one of the back side, would tell. Also, the hole for the lanyard swivel was plugged. Virtually all of these were released for civilian sale in the early months of 1946. It is a matter of debate as to how many SVs in civilian guise were sold, and how many were military finished. In total, probably no more than about 40,000. Military finished versions apparently do exist, but I haven't personally seen one. That late in the war, there was probably little demand remaining from the military. The British ceased taking delivery earlier in 1945, after V-E day.

JP@AK · #3 02-02-2015, 04:23 AM

nuguy
I have a pretty good hunch that your revolver was shipped in March, 1946, and that it went to a distributor. My database shows some with nearby serial numbers and the same configuration that shipped to a dealer in Houston, Texas.
Also, Roy reports that the highest serial number in this sequence that shipped to the Navy was SV802722, and it shipped in August, 1945. We also know that the Navy was still receiving sizable shipments of Victory revolvers in May and July of 1945. After August 1945, there was a bit of a respite and civilian shipments picked up lots of speed in March, 1946. I have not identified any that shipped earlier in 1946 than February.
There is no doubt whatsoever about the stocks on your gun being the postwar style. The checkering is not consistent with the prewar style. However, since these stocks have the sharp shoulder characteristic of the earliest postwar Magna stocks, it is no surprise that they wear the correct serial number and that they are of the postwar style. I show guns shipping in March, 1946, with both prewar and postwar style stocks. The company was clearly using whatever lay at hand. The only real question is what style the retaining washer is. Very early postwar stocks were often equipped with the older machined washers. Once these were used up, they went to the stamped steel type. Again, some of the early washers of the machined steel type were blued, while others were in-the-white. I would like to know which type yours has, so I can enter that info into my database.
This gives you a nice pair of relatively early postwar .38 Military and Police revolvers. Both have the postwar style stocks and the large extractor rod knob, but the earlier one has the threaded hammer pivot stud and the later one has the pressed type stud, illustrating one of the feature changes that I've identified on this series of revolvers.
Congratulations!

DWalt · #4 02-02-2015, 12:29 PM

"...but the earlier one has the threaded hammer pivot stud and the later one has the pressed type stud, illustrating one of the feature changes that I've identified on this series of revolvers."

I don't know the exact date or SN when K-frame production started using the pressed hammer stud as a replacement for threaded type, but the S&W engineering change order was issued in January 1946. Of course, that order would not have applied to the SVs, as all SV frames were manufactured during 1945, using the threaded stud. I believe the assumption is that the pressed stud started being used in March 1946 at the early stages of S-series M&P production.

JP@AK · #5 02-02-2015, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

I don't know the exact date or SN when K-frame production started using the pressed hammer stud as a replacement for threaded type, but the S&W engineering change order was issued in January 1946. Of course, that order would not have applied to the SVs, as all SV frames were manufactured during 1945, using the threaded stud. I believe the assumption is that the pressed stud started being used in March 1946 at the early stages of S-series M&P production.

I don't know what your point is here because I basically agree with what you've written. But allow me to add some clarification.

First, nothing you state contradicts the point I was making that the change to the stud is a features change that occurs within the number range of the S prefix guns and is therefore noteworthy as one of the changes I'm tracking on these revolvers.

Second, the order to change the hammer pivot stud was issued on January 18, 1946, and seems to have been implemented fairly quickly, as you suggested.

However, the third point to be made is that several thousand S prefix revolvers (not SV prefix) were made and assembled before the change was implemented. The highest serial number in my database with a confirmed threaded stud is S818643 and I show no confirmed pressed studs with a lower number.

On the other side of the divide, the lowest serial number with a confirmed pressed stud is S820331. I have a few numbers in my database that fall between these numbers, but I don't have a record of what type stud they have. The earliest ship date I have for a gun with a confirmed pressed stud is April of 1946. So that suggests that most, if not all, of the early S prefix guns with the old style stud were moved out of the factory by about the end of March. That, in turn, suggests an awful lot of guns being sent out in the months of February and March. For example, S&W filled a large order from the Cleveland PD with S prefix revolvers in the S815xxx range in February, 1946. As far as I have been able to determine all of them had the older threaded stud.

Factory records state that the serial number associated with the hammer pivot stud change is S819462. The reported first S prefix gun was S811120. That leaves 8,342 numbers in between the first S gun and the implementation of the stud change. However, that is mitigated by an unknown number of SV guns that were issued with numbers higher than 811120, of which I have about a dozen in my database. However, I doubt there are enough of them to push the total number of S prefix guns with the threaded stud below the 8,000 figure, or at least not much below that quantity.

So yes, the stud change was implemented pretty quickly, but there were still a lot of S prefix guns with the threaded stud. It was not by any means a feature that was limited to the SV guns.

As I continue to gather data on these guns, I hope a more clear picture will emerge. But that is where we are at the present time.

JP@AK · #6 02-02-2015, 03:04 PM

Here's some additional information that sheds further light on the issue:

According to Roy, the first S prefix gun (S811120) was cranked out on September 12, 1945. That is interesting because we know that SV guns exist with higher serial numbers than that. So it seems that there were frames in inventory that had not yet been given serial numbers that included the V that then got stamped with the simple S, while some other frames (with higher numbers) were still being assembled and carried SV prefixes.
This may also help explain why there are quite a few S numbered guns that have a plugged lanyard hole. I show them appearing all the way up to S835xxx, although some lower numbers do not have them. They actually start petering out at around S818xxx. The later ones seem to be exceptions that show up in ones and twos (by serial number). Perhaps those later examples were special orders where lanyards were desired. But they appear consistently up to about S818xxx.

nuguy · #7 02-03-2015, 01:40 AM

The only real question is what style the retaining washer is. Very early postwar stocks were often equipped with the older machined washers. Once these were used up, they went to the stamped steel type. Again, some of the early washers of the machined steel type were blued, while others were in-the-white. I would like to know which type yours has, so I can enter that info into my database.

Jack, My SV 805991 has the black stamped steel washers installed in the number matching stocks.

Just wanted to let you 2 guys know I get a lot of enjoyment out of reading your discussions, and when I am lucky some of it sticks. Thanks for your info.

JP@AK · #8 02-03-2015, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuguy

Jack, My SV 805991 has the black stamped steel washers installed in the number matching stocks

Thanks. That helps and has been entered into my spreadsheet.

iwanna · #9 02-07-2015, 10:18 AM

I know the whereabouts of a beautifully engraved Victory with 2 cylinders (9mm!) in a presentation case. There is no serial number on the butt--it is all engraved. The serial number on the barrel does indeed start with a V.

It's been in the dealer's case for awhile. Priced in the low-2,000s. I like the engraving style, but I'm not so crazy about the polished, jeweled hammer/trigger.

Any questions I should ask? Is there anything I can report back?

Jack, the serial on my Navy-marked Victory is: V130470.

DWalt · #10 02-07-2015, 10:43 AM

It would have to be beautifully engraved by a "name" engraver to be worth that much. And having no SN on the butt could indicate a serious legal problem.

V130470 would date probable shipment as October 1942.

iwanna · #11 02-07-2015, 11:09 AM

Yeah, I thought about the legal part. The dealer is Gander. I might ask them about that. Beautiful stags on it. I doubt I'd be the customer, but I decided that at least a good bit of the value is in somewhere in the package.

The barrel has a rib on it. It appeared to be soldered on, but once again, pretty darned nice.

DWalt · #12 02-07-2015, 11:41 AM

I remember a posting here a while back in which Gander danced a jig around the missing SN on another gun, but finally took it back after someone unknowingly bought it and returned it after finding out about the SN problem. If the correct SN has been stamped somewhere else on the frame, it may be OK. If not, stay away. I'd sure demand knowing a lot more about who did the engraving before I laid out $2K+ for it (disregarding the potential missing SN problem, which gives it a negative value).

iwanna · #13 02-07-2015, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Thanks. That helps and has been entered into my spreadsheet.

Here's the WWII Victory. I apologize and did not mean to highjack a thread.

JP@AK · #14 02-07-2015, 10:39 PM

Thanks. Nice Victory!