Help with .32 cal ID - no letter prefix

anniecanada · Feb 1, 2015

Hello all - I inherited my father's gun collection, and unfortunately have to part with his hand ejector S&W 32 cal (prohibited calibre in Canada, and I'm not grandfathered, as it has been deemed to be manufactured after 1946).

It certainly resembles a K32 Masterpiece, and my father always referred to it as a "K" (even registering it with the K prefix), but nowhere on the frame does the K appear.

I have attached photos - any thoughts on model/value?

Thanks in advance for your expertise.

DWalt · Feb 1, 2015

I'm confused. Exactly what is the caliber marked on the barrel? If the SN is 693395, with no letter prefix, it would be from ca. 1940, and looks to be an M&P target Model (first model, K-32), and extremely rare. It is definitely pre-1946. That's a real breathtaker.

You should go back to whoever did the "deeming."

murphydog · Feb 1, 2015

Condolences on your father's passing.

This appears to be an extremely rare (about 100 made) K-32 First Model Target, as DWalt stated. To give you an idea of how sought-after this gun is, have a look at the gun at the top of the Forum homepage - it is a sibling to your gun.

Should you need verification of its age to be able to keep it, a factory historical letter would be the best route:

Firearm History Request - Smith & Wesson

The current wait time for this is about 4 months, however.

DWalt · Feb 1, 2015

If you can't get an extension of time to obtain a factory letter, it may be possible that someone here with a factory letter documenting the shipping date for a similar K-frame revolver with a nearby SN might be persuaded to send you a copy to establish that the SN is indeed that of a pre-1946 S&W gun. No postwar K-frame would have a serial number without a letter prefix. Unlettered SN prefixes stopped for them in 1942, and any number of references would establish that.

anniecanada · Feb 1, 2015

Thank you for your replies. There has been considerable back and forth with the Registry on this revolver, and as executor, I can transfer it within a "reasonable timeframe". I will definitely pursue the factory letter, and have not been given any deadline for transfer. My father purchased it in 1990 from an estate sale, registered it as a model 16 using a K prefix in the serial number, but it wasn't something he took to the range, as far as I can recollect.

Great to know that it could be pre-1946 and that I may have the option of keeping it. If anyone could point me to references that will back this up, I can have them ready if contacted again by the registry.

anniecanada · Feb 1, 2015

DWalt - it is indeed a 32 - here are photos of the barrel markings. I spoke with a colleague of my father's, who purchased some other firearms from the same estate sale, and he referred to the 32 as the "target model", and indicated that the previous owner was a competitive shooter.

wraco · Feb 1, 2015

Annie:

Condolences extended.

If you decide to sell your father's revolver I'd be interested and have the necessary prohibited status. .

Rod

opoefc · Feb 2, 2015

All the "deeming" authority has to do is place a call to the S&W factory and give them the serial number & Model ( K 22 ) and the factory will tell them when it was shipped. It's definately pre-1940. Ed.

handejector · Feb 2, 2015

You have a very valuable gun.
It was positively shipped before 1946.

The grips on it are not original, and that affects value to some degree, possibly by as much as 10% on a gun in this high value range.
I have sold several in the last few years.
All of them sold for well over $10,000.

DCWilson · Feb 2, 2015

After image inversion and enlargement, I make the serial number to be 673365. This is close to known K-32 First Model 673361, which shipped 11/9/1938 to a dealer in Syracuse, NY. It is also not far from serial number 675367, extracted from company shipping records. That latter gun is not observed; the serial number is printed in Neal & Jinks.

The gun in this thread bears a previously unknown serial number for this model and increases the count of documented specimens by one. I'm not sure what the total is now, but it must be closing in on 110.

Estimates exist in the forum archives that between 150 and 200 of these guns may have been produced. The uncertainty about the actual number comes from the fact that they are hard to spot in the shipping records because the caliber is not always identified.

The highest known serial number on a K-32 Target first model is 682207. That gun has not been observed. It is in the list of these guns published by Neal and Jinks. The latest ship date I have determined for any of the known specimens is in 1941.

I offer condolences to the OP on her loss and applaud her efforts to retain control over this historically interesting and very valuable revolver.

anniecanada · Feb 2, 2015

Well - I certainly have come to the right place for expertise - thank you for all your assistance.

I am disappointed to hear that the number does not appear on Mr. Jinks' list, as I was hoping to find out who the original owner was and trace the path to my father. If I request the Letter of Authenticity, will Mr. Jinks be able to search it by serial number and possibly extract the shipping history?

I want to gather my documents before requesting that the assessment be overturned, but am of course interested in the history of this particular piece.

DWalt · Feb 2, 2015

With a revolver such as this, it is very possible that it may letter as having been shipped to an individual rather to some S&W distributor or retail outlet (as is typical), as anyone with the financial resources to afford such a revolver at the time probably special-ordered it himself from S&W, and may have requested special features. The factory letter will not provide great detail about its origins, but there are ways that the factory records at S&W can be accessed. Someone with that knowledge may wish to inform you about that, as I have never done it. However, with a revolver of this significance and rarity, such research is warranted.

handejector · Feb 2, 2015

By the late 30's, S&W did few or none direct shipments.
I have observed numerous letters in which the Factory is replying to people inquiring about ordering guns. They all directed the buyer to contact a dealer/distributor to place the order.

smith17 · Feb 2, 2015

And just in case it did ship way out of order, don't trash the sharp shouldered stocks before checking the serial number stamped inside the right half.
Ed

DCWilson · Feb 2, 2015

anniecanada said:
I am disappointed to hear that the number does not appear on Mr. Jinks' list, as I was hoping to find out who the original owner was and trace the path to my father. If I request the Letter of Authenticity, will Mr. Jinks be able to search it by serial number and possibly extract the shipping history?

Apologies if I misled you. If you order a letter from S&W, Roy will work from the serial number you give him to find the relevant documents, and he should be able to tell you the shipping date and destination for this particular gun. (By the way, confirm the serial number I suggested by reading the numbers on the flat underside of the barrel and the rear face of the cylinder; they should be the same.) The list I mentioned is from of one his earlier books, and I believe it was compiled simply by scanning pages of shipping registers for guns described as .32 target models. In short, he was working from shorthand model notations to try to identify associated serial numbers, not researching one by one a complete list of serial numbers to identify all examples of the specific model that collectors wanted to know about.

anniecanada · Feb 2, 2015

Thank you all for your kind assistance. I have contacted Roy Jinks and now have the information that I need to move forward. As I know there are many who are interested in this particular revolver, I will share the following:

The serial number is 673365 (butt, cylinder and barrel)
The grips have a different serial number (110029)
It shipped on December 6, 1938 to Moncton, New Brunswick

I will be requesting transfer into my possession (i.e., it will not be relinquished) and would like to thank you and of course, Roy Jinks, for your considerable assistance and knowledge.

DWalt · Feb 2, 2015

With 110029 stamped on the stocks, the SN of the original revolver they were on would have most likely been C110029 from ca. 1950 or K110029 from ca. 1951. They are often identified as "sharp shoulder Magnas." That date would be consistent with the stock shape. It is unfortunate that the stocks are not originals. The original grips that came with it could have been of a different style, possibly pre-war Magnas or 1930s-style round tops with medallions. Or maybe even some custom-made set.

Did he provide information if the shipment to Moncton, New Brunswick was to an individual or to some distributor or retailer?

murphydog · Feb 2, 2015

Glad we could help keep your father's revolver where it belongs

.

The stocks currently on the gun have flat bottoms as would have been put on a Target sighted K prefix gun, so the 1951 date mentioned above would be the most likely vintage. Also as mentioned above, the original stocks may have been the ones pictured at the top of the Forum homepage, pre-war Magnas. These are scarce and expensive but someone here may have a set if you are interested in finding them; you can post an ad in the Wanted to Buy section.

Enjoy!

anniecanada · Feb 3, 2015

DWalt said:
Did he provide information if the shipment to Moncton, New Brunswick was to an individual or to some distributor or retailer?

The gun was originally shipped to Sumner Co., Moncton, New Brunswick. I may have a lead as to how it made its way across the country, but still have much research to do.

I will post the outcome of the Registry saga once I receive a response from the Chief Firearms Officer here (the office that deemed the revolver to be post-1946) - I'm confident that they will overturn their decision.

Quick question to the group - I've never fired this gun (and it's quite possible my father didn't either, as he had moved north immediately after purchase) - if I put a few rounds through it, would that be akin to sacrilege to the collectors in the crowd? I'm sure I will eventually part with it, as it will have a much greater appreciation in a collector's collection - best to keep it unsullied, or...?

CptCurl · Feb 4, 2015

anniecanada said:
Quick question to the group - I've never fired this gun (and it's quite possible my father didn't either, as he had moved north immediately after purchase) - if I put a few rounds through it, would that be akin to sacrilege to the collectors in the crowd? I'm sure I will eventually part with it, as it will have a much greater appreciation in a collector's collection - best to keep it unsullied, or...?

The gun shows moderate use. I can see that the ejector rod has lost much of its finish, indicating it has been articulated many times. I would expect the recoil shield will show a clear cartridge head impression around the firing pin hole. That is not bad, but indicates the gun has been fired more than a few times. You can continue to use this gun carefully without any effect on future value. Heavy use will eventually take its toll, but that is not what you envision.

Shoot it, care for it, enjoy it. It's a fine example, and you have a lot of grown men sitting at their computers salivating.

Thanks for sharing your information. You have benefitted profoundly, but you also have enriched the discussion on this forum.

Curl

P.S. The K32 Targets are absolutely delightful to shoot! Enjoy it.

Help with .32 cal ID - no letter prefix

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