Brad Pitt Goes to 'War' with S&W M1917

[ordnanceguy]

Gentlemen:

For those of you who have not kept up with your Hollywood Reporter subscriptions I can now advise that Brad Pitt will be coming back to the silver screen in November, 2014. Pitt is starring in FURY, a story about an M4 Sherman tank crew in the 2nd Armored Division in the ETO during WW2. I am informed that the production went to great lengths to get the atmospherics and details correct. Filmed in the UK it even features a genuine, operational German Tiger tank borrowed from the Bovington Tank Museum.

The photo below, credited to People magazine, shows Pitt on the set. I have been informed that Pitt's revolver is a Smith M1917 which has had Plexiglas "sweetheart" stocks added to it. The holster is not USGI and was custom made for the film. The revolver is one detail that Hollywood either overlooked or chose for dramatic purposes as the TO&E for armor crews in 1944 would not have called for M1917s. Nonetheless, it is always nice to see a Smith at the cinema and since I am a sucker for WW2 films I will be in line to see this one in November.

[jimmyj]

In the Steve Cochran 1951 movie "The Tanks Are Coming" co-starring Ann Sheridan, Steve as a Tank Commander Sergeant carries Colt SAA as he is from Texas.

[JP@AK]

Definitely not a Pitt fan, but I guess I'll have to see this movie!

[Malysh]

Certainly better than that flake Tom Cruise stating that with all the pre-film infantry training he receives for movies that he and other actors are just as savy and well trained as Army and Marine infantry. I think he may have used the term "warriors" I couldn't believe when I read this.

The guy has both feet firmly planted in mid-air!

When Mark Wahlberg, who's also done a lot of war movies read this, he went ballistic on Cruise. I tend to agree with Mr. Wahlberg.

This looks like an interesting movie, Charlie.
How can one resist it with one of the "tankers" carrying an S&W Mod 1917 with sweetheart grips!!

[BigBill]

I guess I'm not alone watching movies to see what guns they use.

[THE PILGRIM]

When my Air Corps doctor Father in Law was getting some indoctrination in DC prior to going to Africa, he was issued two revolvers. He couldn't remember if they were Smiths or Colts but he was sure they were 45 ACPs.
Later he was on a Pan-American flying boat headed across the South Atlantic. The non-combat air Corps officer sitting next to him complained that nobody would issue him the a Side arm. So my father-in-law replied they issued me two, I'll just give you one of mine.

[amazingflapjack]

Tough getting through a tank hatch with a shoulder holster worn on the side like that. The ones I am familiar with were for 1911's, and hung more on the chest. But maybe the shinola in that mop of hair would help him slide through!

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by BigBill

I guess I'm not alone watching movies to see what guns they use.

Not hardly!

[ordnanceguy]

The title of the film comes from the name of the fictitious M4 tank, FURY, which is written on the barrel of the main gun.

[Sebago Son]

Charlie,

You may find this of interest... but I bet you already knew. 1917's were soldiering on well after they were officially removed from the inventory.



This Colt's 1917 served with a family friend in Desert Storm.



This Marine's father told me that the notches in the stock were not there before he deployed.



Drew

[PALADIN85020]

Originally Posted by ordnanceguy

Gentlemen:

For those of you who have not kept up with your Hollywood Reporter subscriptions I can now advise that Brad Pitt will be coming back to the silver screen in November, 2014. Pitt is starring in FURY, a story about an M4 Sherman tank crew in the 2nd Armored Division in the ETO during WW2. I am informed that the production went to great lengths to get the atmospherics and details correct. Filmed in the UK it even features a genuine, operational German Tiger tank borrowed from the Bovington Tank Museum.

The photo below, credited to People magazine, shows Pitt on the set. I have been informed that Pitt's revolver is a Smith M1917 which has had Plexiglas "sweetheart" stocks added to it. The holster is not USGI and was custom made for the film. The revolver is one detail that Hollywood either overlooked or chose for dramatic purposes as the TO&E for armor crews in 1944 would not have called for M1917s. Nonetheless, it is always nice to see a Smith at the cinema and since I am a sucker for WW2 films I will be in line to see this one in November.

Filmed in the UK??? Did they use broomsticks instead of real guns???

John

[Raider]

Disappointment. I though that Tommy was going to play SGT FURY. They shought issue Cruise rubber guns only! BAH!!!

Charlie

[Texas Star]

When I was maybe 12, Mother had a repairman in to fix the refrigerator. We got to talking and this guy was in Patton's 3rd Army, part of a Sherman crew. He told me that they all had .45 autos, but that many also wore captured German pistols under their coats. The idea was to not have German snipers see the guns on their belts. Also, if captured, they might be able to produce the hidden pistol and turn the tables.

I've seen M-1917 revolvers on WW II tank crews, but the photos may well have all been taken during training in the USA. But they supposedly could carry either those or .45 autos, although the autos certainly predominated in war zones.

I've seen those "theater" made plexiglass grips with photos under them on both pistols and knives. It's certainly possible that Pitt's character could have a 1917 with such grips on it and that privately acquired holster. The Airborne soldier who wrote some excellent books about his days in France and Holland carried both a nickled .45 auto sent by his father and a captured P-38 and kept them after the war. If he's still living, I bet he has them now. One of his titles is, "The Road Past Arnhem." First name is Donald. Anyone know his last name? Oh: Burgett. The books are really good.

The best account of tank warfare that I've read is, "Brazen Chariots", by a South African officer serving in the Royal Tank Regiment. Major Robert Crisp, D.S.O., M.C. Crisp fought in what they called Honey tanks, US-supplied M-3 Stuarts. He quipped that they were a honey of a tank and the name was overheard and caught on. But the German armor in N. Africa was superior, apart from the M-3's speed and manueveribility. Crisp was eventually severely wounded and his best friend killed when a shell slammed into his tank. But he had already become a decorated hero, as you see from the initials after his name.

Crisp mentioned using his .38 revolver, but I don't think he said if it was an Enfield, Webley, or S&W. Burgett mentioned seeing a British tank column stopped for tea in Normandy, and those tankers wore S&W .38-200's. I've seen a number of pics of Commonwealth troops with those.

The few photos that I've seen of M-1917 .45's in war zones were in the hands of MP's. But some tankers could surely have had them. Bill Jordan, the gun writer, personally told me that he hunted Japanese in caves while armed with an S&W .45 and a 12 ga. shotgun. He preferred those from his Border Patrol days. In WW II, he was a Marine officer.

Col. Chas. Askins wore a .38 New Service Colt with a cutaway trigger guard in the war, and Jeff Cooper told me that he began in the Pacific with a Colt SAA .45, with which he shot one Japanese who was coming over a log. He meant to fire twice, but the first shot was so "positive" that the second wasn't needed. He later went to the .45 auto, for which he became a leading spokesman, of course. I've seen photos of both guns. The SAA had stag grips and adjustable sights, I think from King's. It resembled the later New Frontier.

Marine Sgt. John Basilone, MH used his M-1911 .45 extensively against the Japanese during his famed fight on Guadalacanal. If you don't know about him and his Medal of Honor, look him up on Wiki. Alas, he was later killed in action.

I think the most remarkable use of a sidearm in WW II may have been the case of an airman on a B-17 who used an S&W .38 to shoot down an attacking ME-109! The US airman's .50 cal. machinegun had run dry and he was desperate to kill the German pilot. Apparently, his bullet got through the propellor and did just that! That also reflects on just how close Luftwaffe planes came to US bombers.

I can't recall where I read that account. Does anyone else know the details or the airman's name? No idea if the .38 was personally owned, but it was probably the usual M&P model. It was surely a remarkable feat! I hope he got an award.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by ordnanceguy

The title of the film comes from the name of the fictitious M4 tank, FURY, which is written on the barrel of the main gun.

Isn't this Sherman missing two .30 machineguns?

[Texas Star]

Oh: Tom Cruise is a little...unusual. But keep in mind that he owns and flies a P-51 Mustang.

I liked the way he single-handedly cocked his PPK on a desk in, Valkerie, where he played a German colonel who'd lost an arm in an RAF strafing attack in North Africa. The planes were P-40's, Kittyhawks. Cruise is said to have insisted on that detail.

He isn't all bad. And he's quite bold. He does his own stunts, some of which I'd think one would have to be daft to do. And I like the way he paid the hospital bill for a lady who was in a traffic accident. (He was a witness but not involved.)

I read that he's doing a sequel to, "Top Gun." I wonder if they'll use F-18 Hornets or Super Hornets this time?

[kimporter]

it is missing the one on the front, they had an extra 30 cal above the loader(hatch pitt is in)

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by kimporter

it is missing the one on the front, they had an extra 30 cal above the loader(hatch pitt is in)

You can see the ball socket mount for the bow gun and the empty hole for the one alongside the 75mm.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't think any movie is "perfect" but if you take it as a whole . . . Cruise and the rest in "Saving Private Ryan" at least presented the story of D-Day and brought it to the public theaters where a younger generation could be exposed to the invasion and what it did. I'm not saying it was "perfect" nor is any movie - every one can be picked apart.

Unfortunately, the majority of the veterans who were lucky enough to survive such campaigns as D-Day, Iwo, etc. would never discuss what they had gone through - not even with their families. That generation is fast fading just as the veterans of World War I did. I was lucky enough to interview may WW I vets - they were in their 70s at the time and I recorded stories that they had never ever discussed with their families. If the younger generation is going to have any appreciation of what our folks went through, they only way they are going to get it is through movies - heaven help "em if they ever read a book about it. I can well remember that many of the survivors of D-Day never spoke of it until the 50th Anniversary and even then, it was difficult for them.

My father in law went in to N Africa as a replacement and then moved up to Italy (34th Red Bull Division). He never discussed anything with his children. For some reason, he did discuss a few things with me and they had a mighty rough time of it. He was a BAR man. After he passed, I did some more research on his division. It was interesting in that in one source, it was estimated that the life of a BAR man in that division, once they entered into an engagement, was 15 seconds.

I'm not a fan of Pitt either and Hollywood does take some unauthentic measures, but, if it gets the story out there, then it serves a very valid purpose. That generation is fast fading and they went through a lot - the Depression, the war and everyone sacrificed - both at home and in the service. Their generation furnished "leaders" - those we have today, can't hold a candle to them. I'm a firm believer that's why this country is in such a mess that it is . . . . and I firmly believe that they all earned the title of the "Greatest Generation".

[Malysh]

I have no problem with the preparation, or acting in these movies.

I am troubled by a narcissistic actor who actually believes he's combat tough and a warrior because he takes "movie boot camps" before filming. It just amazes me.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by ordnanceguy

The holster is not USGI and was custom made for the film. The revolver is one detail that Hollywood either overlooked or chose for dramatic purposes as the TO&E for armor crews in 1944 would not have called for M1917s.

I think there was a good bit of leeway allowed GIs in their choice of sidearms. Some of them received personal arms sent from home.

I know for a fact that the father of a good friend of mine who landed in France on D-Day "liberated" a Luger and used it for the duration of the war, after having given (or traded for goods) his GI .45 to another soldier.

I don't think command personnel much cared what sort of weapon GIs used to kill Germans, as long as the job got done. And regarding non-conventional sidearms...just look at George Patton. Neither of his holsters were government issue, not to mention his Colt six-shooter and .45, both with ivory grips.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by bedbugbilly

I don't think any movie is "perfect" but if you take it as a whole . . . Cruise and the rest in "Saving Private Ryan" at least presented the story of D-Day and brought it to the public theaters where a younger generation could be exposed to the invasion and what it did.

Cruise wasn't in Saving Private Ryan...it was Tom Hanks who played the leading role. And Matt Damon was Ryan.

But I agree with you on what the film accomplished. It was, and remains, a landmark film. Along with Band of Brothers, the ten-part series on HBO, it's probably one of the most authentic portrayals of D-Day and its aftermath.

Those two films did for D-Day and WWII what Platoon and possibly even Full Metal Jacket did for the Vietnam war.

[Watchdog]

Originally Posted by Malysh

I am troubled by a narcissistic actor who actually believes he's combat tough and a warrior because he takes "movie boot camps" before filming. It just amazes me.

Actors, by their very nature and the job they do, are narcissistic. And I haven't heard of Brad Pitt claiming to be "combat tough" after any film boot camp. Even the actors in Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers who went through a boot camp admitted they couldn't have hacked it if it had been for real...especially the Band of Brothers cast, who were put through the wringer by Dale Dye, the ex-marine who schools a lot of actors on the hardships of war.

So why be "troubled" by it? It's only a movie and the actors are doing what they're paid to do.

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by WATCHDOG

Actors, by their very nature and the job they do, are narcissistic. And I haven't heard of Brad Pitt claiming to be "combat tough" after any film boot camp. Even the actors in Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers who went through a boot camp admitted they couldn't have hacked it if it had been for real...especially the Band of Brothers cast, who were put through the wringer by Dale Dye, the ex-marine who schools a lot of actors on the hardships of war.

So why be "troubled" by it? It's only a movie and the actors are doing what they're paid to do.

You answered your question for me, yourself. You cited Brad Pitt and other actors from Band of Brothers and Private Ryan who admitted they could have never hacked it in combat. These actors are relatively sane and maybe even have a honest perspective about themselves that is not 90% shaded by ego.

But Cruise specifically said what I repeated here. He's definitely NOT normal, even by Hollywood standards. As for troubled, take that with a grain of salt. It was just a phrase, I don't stay awake thinking about that ninny

[ma deuce]

My high school guidance counselor was a Ranger on D-Day and was a technical consultant on "Ryan". He attended the mini-boot camp Capt. Dye put the cast through before the start of filming. According to an interview he gave my hometown paper, they acquitted themselves quite well and in a few more weeks could pretty much have handled the real thing, apart from the jumps. Apparently Dye showed them no mercy. Also, some of the actors had actually been in the service.

[Twogunnes]

If only George Clooney was in it. It would sure be .....

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by WATCHDOG

I think there was a good bit of leeway allowed GIs in their choice of sidearms. Some of them received personal arms sent from home.

I know for a fact that the father of a good friend of mine who landed in France on D-Day "liberated" a Luger and used it for the duration of the war, after having given (or traded for goods) his GI .45 to another soldier.

I don't think command personnel much cared what sort of weapon GIs used to kill Germans, as long as the job got done. And regarding non-conventional sidearms...just look at George Patton. Neither of his holsters were government issue, not to mention his Colt six-shooter and .45, both with ivory grips.

Old Blood and Guts carried his 3 1/2" Registered Magnum more than he did his 1911. It too had ivory grips with his initials, GSP, on them. He referred to it as his "killing gun".

[TIMETRIPPER]

I look forward to seeing the movie. Both Cruise and Pitt are fine actors whether one agrees with their off stage antics or not. And since all actors are narcissistic to some degree I take anything they say or do while out of character with a grain of salt.

In "With The Old Breed: st Peleliu and Okinawa" Eugene Sledge writes about a 45 that his father sent him for personal use. In the HBO miniseries it it shown several times and appears to be a commercial S&W 1917 type with checkered stocks. But I don't recall reading in the book whether it was a revolver or 1911.

My own father served as a Naval aviator in the North Atlantic. In addition to a Victory revolver, he carried a rather large hunting style knife that my grandfather made out of a broken file. Grandpa worked for the NYC RR and got the file from the Avis, Pa, engine shops. He made the sheath too, out of some old machine drive belt leather. Still have both though the sheath is a little worse for wear.
John

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by TIMETRIPPER

I look forward to seeing the movie. Both Cruise and Pitt are fine actors whether one agrees with their off stage antics or not. And since all actors are narcissistic to some degree I take anything they say or do while out of character with a grain of salt.

In "With The Old Breed: st Peleliu and Okinawa" Eugene Sledge writes about a 45 that his father sent him for personal use. In the HBO miniseries it it shown several times and appears to be a commercial S&W 1917 type with checkered stocks. But I don't recall reading in the book whether it was a revolver or 1911.

My own father served as a Naval aviator in the North Atlantic. In addition to a Victory revolver, he carried a rather large hunting style knife that my grandfather made out of a broken file. Grandpa worked for the NYC RR and got the file from the Avis, Pa, engine shops. He made the sheath too, out of some old machine drive belt leather. Still have both though the sheath is a little worse for wear.
John

Can you picture the knife? Sounds interesting. I think Naval aviators were usually issued MK 1 knives or bought their own.

If you watch, "The Bridges at Toko-Ri", William Holden's character was wearing what I think was a Western brand "shark knife." He was a lawyer from Denver and Western was in Colorado, so that was very plausible. I saw their knives in most suitable stores while I was stationed in Denver in the 1960's. But I bought Buck and Randall. I did get a used small Western sheath knife, which I still have. The movie, of course, is about the Korean war, not WW II. You can sometimes find it or excerpts on YouTube. Good film!

BTW, in the book, I think James Michener (sp?) mentioned that the pilot hero had fired his Victory Model .38 just six times in training. That seems very likely. When his F-9F Panther (a Banshee in the book) was shot down, he reflected about that. I won't say how he got a .30 carbine or how it ended; that'd be a spoiler for those who haven't seen it. The movie also starred Mickey Rooney and Grace Kelly.

I was in the USAF but sometimes saw Naval aviators. They had Victory Models and knives were evidently up to the man wearing it. I saw only a couple of Randalls; most were less expensive.

For the Vietnam war, I like the book series by a pilot who flew Intruders. "Flight of the Intruder" was his first book. His name momentarily escapes me, but you can find the book by title. He mentioned that on the carrier, pilots had a small locker in their rooms to store a sidearm. I think he wore a S&W M-19 .357, like his hero, Jake Grafton. His pal had a Colt M-1911A-1 and a big knife similar to a Cold Steel Trailmaster, but not one of those.

Back in the Viet years, it wasn't uncommon to see milltary pilots asking gun magazine columnists about sidearms. Some AF bases told pilots to bring their own, as there were shortages. Naturally, Jeff Cooper advised buying a Colt .45 auto... But it was a sound choice, at that. Jeff could be more versatile. He liked the M-19 with six-inch bbl. as a trail gun, making the point that it had a lot of power with less bulk than most .357's. And it shot flatter and was more useful in the wilderness than a .45 auto, with .38 ammo for small game.

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by TIMETRIPPER

I look forward to seeing the movie. Both Cruise and Pitt are fine actors whether one agrees with their off stage antics or not. And since all actors are narcissistic to some degree I take anything they say or do while out of character with a grain of salt.

In "With The Old Breed: st Peleliu and Okinawa" Eugene Sledge writes about a 45 that his father sent him for personal use. In the HBO miniseries it it shown several times and appears to be a commercial S&W 1917 type with checkered stocks. But I don't recall reading in the book whether it was a revolver or 1911.

My own father served as a Naval aviator in the North Atlantic. In addition to a Victory revolver, he carried a rather large hunting style knife that my grandfather made out of a broken file. Grandpa worked for the NYC RR and got the file from the Avis, Pa, engine shops. He made the sheath too, out of some old machine drive belt leather. Still have both though the sheath is a little worse for wear.
John

Dr. Sledge's book is one of the best written by a WWII combat veteran. I have a copy and it will never be forgotten by me. His recounting of Okinawa was horrifying. Everybody knows about Iwo, but there weren't enough good books about Okinawa.
His book is really much better than "Helmet for my Pillow" by Robert Leckie, USMC, who was originally a journalist in his civilian life. Leckie's book is a lot more famous, but it's full of literary allusions which although intelligent, I don't care for. Sledge's book is more simply written and speaks plainly from the heart. Sledge came home to gain a doctorate in ornithology and became a tenured full professor at Alabama. Both men were very intelligent and successful, but Dr. Sledge's book tugs at the heart strings.
It's ironic to me that Mr. Leckie's book became more famous and was even touted by the Corps. I don't remember them doing that for Dr. Sledge's book.

Eugene Sledge couldn't even bear to go bird hunting with his dad after the war. He just couldn't bear to kill anything after those experiences.

Both these books are excellent if you want to read good books by enlisted men who lived through some of the roughest of the Pacific battles.

[THE PILGRIM]

Eugene Sledge was of course one of the main character in the miniseries the Pacific. Does anybody know was his book used as a source for that that Series? Sounds like it probably was.
A Marine from my hometown that I knew who was at Guadalcanal committed suicide about 25 years after the war was over.
The Most Highly decorated Marine that I have met who was there is Marine raider Gordon Warner. I'll do a thread on him sometime.

[Engine49guy]

Originally Posted by ordnanceguy

The title of the film comes from the name of the fictitious M4 tank, FURY, which is written on the barrel of the main gun.

Does the tread pattern and muzzle break on the main gun stand out to anyone else as post WWII upgrades ?

[30-30remchester]

I have never told this story before because it is rather long, but here goes. My uncle was in WWII at Bataan and survived the death march, hell ships and forced labor camps in Japan. I seldom ever heard him talk about anything "serious" about the war, but would tell off the wall unusual experiences. I never knew this man to lie or fib about anything. He even told the truth about the size of fish he caught, so I have to believe the following story is true. After escape to the Bataan peninsula, in a lull in fighting, he had won in poker games 2 1911 45's. Being a private he had to keep them hidden. Starving, the troops ate all the mules, then ate the cavalry mounts, then started hunting monkeys in the jungle. While hunting monkeys, he shot one with one of the 2 45's he had on his belt (he was a 17 year old kid). Wounding the monkey it hit the ground and scurried off. While following the blood spoor, he came upon a pair of the biggest feet he had ever seen. Attached to the feet was a huge Japanese soldier pointed a rifle with a bayonet at him. The Jap was what he called a northern island Jap known for being large men. The Jap had him dead to rights but didn't shoot and just pointed his rifle at my uncle and his pistols. Getting the drift, my uncle slowly removed both guns and laid them on the ground. The Jap motioned him to move back which he did. Now the odd part of this story happened. The Jap sat down his rifle, picked up both handguns, turned his attention away from my uncle and examined both pistols. Finding the best of the 2, he tucked it into his belt, picked up his rifle and walked away, leaving my uncle and the other pistol. My uncle quickly retrieved his remaining pistol and aimed it at the back of the departing Jap, but held his fire as he didn't think the 45 could kill such a large man. My uncle went back to camp empty handed as the Jap reached down on leaving and picked up and kept the now dead monkey.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

Does the tread pattern and muzzle break on the main gun stand out to anyone else as post WWII upgrades ?

I don't know about the treads, but don't think WW II Shermans had muzzle brakes (not "breaks").

Something bothered me about that 75mm, and I think that's it.

The muzzle brakes were probably inspired by those on German tanks.

Some British-used Shermans had upgraded, more powerful guns. Don't know if they used brakes. Did the Soviet T-34?

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM

Eugene Sledge was of course one of the main character in the miniseries the Pacific. Does anybody know was his book used as a source for that that Series? Sounds like it probably was.
A Marine from my hometown that I knew who was at Guadalcanal committed suicide about 25 years after the war was over.
The Most Highly decorated Marine that I have met who was there is Marine raider Gordon Warner. I'll do a thread on him sometime.

I would give you a Like for your post, but because of the hometown Marine's suicide I don't think it is appropriate. My heart's in the right place, though. The author Len Deighton (one of my favorites) once said that if you sell the movie rights to one of your books, be prepared to have 75% of the plot sliced out.

They used Dr. Sledge's book for the series, among other works and memoirs. I watched it with great interest. They didn't always use his memoirs particularly accurately, as TV and Movie makers have little respect for the art of writing.

It's not completely their fault.
A book is an art form that takes maybe a week to digest. It's difficult to keep a movie watcher in a theater for over 2 hrs. So a movie must have a plot that can tell the story and reach it's conclusion in about 2 hrs. This fundamental differences in the two art forms has left me disappointed in more than one movie made from my favorite books. I am reconciled to it by my age, though.

I found The Pacific to be pretty good, but not as intensely warming in a personal sense as the feelings evoked in Band of Brothers. This is because you start with the same group of guys in B of B and stick with them through the entire ETO campaign. By dint of the vastness of the geography of the Pacific Theater, this is not possible with The Pacific.
The personal bonds, for the screen and in real life of Band of Brothers strikes that very human chord in all of us. I think it would have been impossible to do that with The Pacific.

I was very impressed, though, with the re-creation of the airfield battle on Peleliu. Marines in a frontal charge against hardened targets (the concrete control tower and concrete office buildings), a 600+ yds charge in 115 degree heat doing without water replenishment. They had a problem getting fresh water the first week or a little less at Peleliu. Showered by light and heavy Japanese mortar fire, artillery fire, plus machine guns and small arms fire. Over a space as denuded as a pool table. These men were incredible. The re-creation of this battle left me with chills up my spine, just as the Normandy invasion scenes in Saving Private Ryan, which were incredible. None were ever filmed better than these examples, if I may be permitted to say so.

Semper Fi,
Mike

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by 30-30remchester

I have never told this story before because it is rather long, but here goes. My uncle was in WWII at Bataan and survived the death march, hell ships and forced labor camps in Japan. I seldom ever heard him talk about anything "serious" about the war, but would tell off the wall unusual experiences. I never knew this man to lie or fib about anything. He even told the truth about the size of fish he caught, so I have to believe the following story is true. After escape to the Bataan peninsula, in a lull in fighting, he had won in poker games 2 1911 45's. Being a private he had to keep them hidden. Starving, the troops ate all the mules, then ate the cavalry mounts, then started hunting monkeys in the jungle. While hunting monkeys, he shot one with one of the 2 45's he had on his belt (he was a 17 year old kid). Wounding the monkey it hit the ground and scurried off. While following the blood spoor, he came upon a pair of the biggest feet he had ever seen. Attached to the feet was a huge Japanese soldier pointed a rifle with a bayonet at him. The Jap was what he called a northern island Jap known for being large men. The Jap had him dead to rights but didn't shoot and just pointed his rifle at my uncle and his pistols. Getting the drift, my uncle slowly removed both guns and laid them on the ground. The Jap motioned him to move back which he did. Now the odd part of this story happened. The Jap sat down his rifle, picked up both handguns, turned his attention away from my uncle and examined both pistols. Finding the best of the 2, he tucked it into his belt, picked up his rifle and walked away, leaving my uncle and the other pistol. My uncle quickly retrieved his remaining pistol and aimed it at the back of the departing Jap, but held his fire as he didn't think the 45 could kill such a large man. My uncle went back to camp empty handed as the Jap reached down on leaving and picked up and kept the now dead monkey.

The indigenous Northern Japanese people are called the Ainu. They used to be called the Hairy Ainu by the majority of the Japanese, who were descendants of the Koreans. The Ainu were already in Northern Japan a long time when the first Koreans/future Japanese first set foot on the Japanese islands. At one time they were discrimated against by their fellow Japanese. I knew they were taller than the later Japanese, but I don't think they are a giant race. It think it was coincidence this Japanese Ainu soldier was that huge. It happens.

At any rate, what a story!
Thanks for sharing it.

[30-30remchester]

My uncle told a few other odd stories but not gun related so will wait till an appropriate post to tell the few I know.

[Muley Gil]

"Sledge came home to gain a doctorate in ornithology and became a tenured full professor at Alabama."

Dr Sledge was a graduate of Alabama Polytechnical Institute (now Auburn University). He became a professor at Alabama College (now the University of Montevallo) in Shelby County, Alabama, not that "other" school over in Tuscaloosey.

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

"Sledge came home to gain a doctorate in ornithology and became a tenured full professor at Alabama."

Dr Sledge was a graduate of Alabama Polytechnical Institute (now Auburn University). He became a professor at Alabama College (now the University of Montevallo) in Shelby County, Alabama, not that "other" school over in Tuscaloosey.

Thanks for expanding on the facts, Muley. Of course I read this as it's mentioned in his book. However, the details, UA vs. Auburn, I could not recall specifically. My knowledge of the great state of Alabama is purely anecdotal. I've never been there.

What could you expect from a kid born in NYC and bred 5 miles from Kennedy Airport?
You know how us Yankees are

[Kernel Crittenden]

The German helmet and gas mask on the left front headlight is a nice touch. Shermans with the 76mm M1 gun could have a muzzle brake. The German 88mm and the high velocity 75mm on the Panther could penetrate a Sherman's armor like a hot knife through butter. And the butter was made out of gasoline. German infantry also had very effective anti-tank weapons. Our tankers in the ETO took a lot of casualties.

[yardboy]

Great stories! And a really good thread!

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Malysh

Thanks for expanding on the facts, Muley. Of course I read this as it's mentioned in his book. However, the details, UA vs. Auburn, I could not recall specifically. My knowledge of the great state of Alabama is purely anecdotal. I've never been there.

What could you expect from a kid born in NYC and bred 5 miles from Kennedy Airport?
You know how us Yankees are

One of the first questions that is asked of any newcomer to the Great State of Alabama is: Who you gonna pull for-Auburn or Alabama?

Someone once asked, "Is football as important in Alabama as religion?"

Answer, " Oh no! Football is much more important!!!!"

[TIMETRIPPER]

Originally posted by Texas Star.
If you watch, "The Bridges at Toko-Ri", William Holden's character was wearing what I think was a Western brand "shark knife." He was a lawyer from Denver and Western was in Colorado, so that was very plausible. I saw their knives in most suitable stores while I was stationed in Denver in the 1960's. But I bought Buck and Randall. I did get a used small Western sheath knife, which I still have. The movie, of course, is about the Korean war, not WW II. You can sometimes find it or excerpts on YouTube. Good film!

BTW, in the book, I think James Michener (sp?) mentioned that the pilot hero had fired his Victory Model .38 just six times in training. That seems very likely. When his F-9F Panther (a Banshee in the book) was shot down, he reflected about that. I won't say how he got a .30 carbine or how it ended; that'd be a spoiler for those who haven't seen it. The movie also starred Mickey Rooney and Grace Kelly.

Talk about coincidence, after the war , my dad remained in the USNR and flew in a anti submarine patrol squadron out of Willow Grove NAS just north of Philly. While there he met James Mitchner several times. Mitchner was from the SE Pa and based parts of "...Toko Ri" on research obtained from a squadron stationed in Wilow Grove at the time. Much of the info was obtained during cocktail hour at the officers club and off base watering holes frequented by fliers.
I like all of his books. And think the musical "South Pacific" to be the Cats meow, especially Mitzi Gaynor.

John

[calmex]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

I don't know about the treads, but don't think WW II Shermans had muzzle brakes (not "breaks").

Something bothered me about that 75mm, and I think that's it.

The muzzle brakes were probably inspired by those on German tanks.

Some British-used Shermans had upgraded, more powerful guns. Don't know if they used brakes. Did the Soviet T-34?

The British Sherman Firefly with the 17-pounder gun had a muzzle-brake. Seeing the photos of Pitt's Sherman, it's not a Firefly. The Firefly completely eliminated the forward machine-gun/radio-operator position to use for ammo-storage.

So whatever gun Pitt is using, it's probably not the 17-pounder -- which would penetrate the Tiger or the Panther. But they were a Commonwealth tank as far as I know.

[dswancutt]

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

Does the tread pattern and muzzle break on the main gun stand out to anyone else as post WWII upgrades ?

This tank would be correct for a very late war (Sept 44 and later) Sherman as it has the HVSS suspension and 76mm gun. The muzzle brake is correct but the tanks where shipped without a brake but with a threaded barrel and thread protector and added as they became available.

[sigp220.45]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

I think the most remarkable use of a sidearm in WW II may have been the case of an airman on a B-17 who used an S&W .38 to shoot down an attacking ME-109! The US airman's .50 cal. machinegun had run dry and he was desperate to kill the German pilot. Apparently, his bullet got through the propellor and did just that! That also reflects on just how close Luftwaffe planes came to US bombers.

I can't recall where I read that account. Does anyone else know the details or the airman's name? No idea if the .38 was personally owned, but it was probably the usual M&P model. It was surely a remarkable feat! I hope he got an award.

The airman's name was Paul J. Posti, of Glendale, CA. In Charlie Pate's excellent book "U.S. Handguns of WWII: Secondary Pistols and Revolvers" on page 268 there is a reprint of an article from the Los Angeles Times dated 4/2/44 detailing the account. Posti says "I grabbed my .38" - the only description of the gun. The plane was a Focke-Wulfe 190.

[Muley Gil]

"Col. Chas. Askins wore a .38 New Service Colt with a cutaway trigger guard in the war..."

IIRC, Col Askins also carried a .44-40 New Service in the war. He had a S&W .44 Magnum in Viet Nam as well.

[ordnanceguy]

Sgt. Brad Pitt and crew are disheartened by the thrown track on their Sherman. They are hostile but not mobile. Where the heck is that guy from AAA?

[Modified]

Originally Posted by BigBill

I guess I'm not alone watching movies to see what guns they use.

You maybe should be. Some movies are particularly enjoyable because the guns are almost characters.

Many of Michael Mann's movies are very gun-centric. Movies like Joe Kidd are great just for the guns that are in them. I love watching a movie that was clearly made by a gun nerd, you don't have people slapping cylinders closed with a flick of their wrist, or extraneous threatening gun noises every time someone points a gun at someone else.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by ordnanceguy

Sgt. Brad Pitt and crew are disheartened by the thrown track on their Sherman. They are hostile but not mobile. Where the heck is that guy from AAA?

Note that the missing machinegun from the bow of the tank is now present. Also note the M-3 SMG on the tank. But the other crewmen don't seem to have their sidearms visible.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

"Col. Chas. Askins wore a .38 New Service Colt with a cutaway trigger guard in the war..."

IIRC, Col Askins also carried a .44-40 New Service in the war. He had a S&W .44 Magnum in Viet Nam as well.

Askins was in Vietnam prior to the US official involvement, I think. He hunted there. I recall him killing a guerilla that I think he referred to as Viet Minh, not Viet Cong. One shot from the M-29 did the job.

"Well, of course," you may think. But I knew a cop who shot a fleeing thug four times through the chest with a .44 Magnum, and that felon ran for another block or two before dropping.

I think Askins's target was DRT. (Dead Right There.)