..... Model 1917 S&W revolver with Low Serial Number 153

Carl Casto · May 20, 2015

S&W38 said:
Carl Casto:

Thank you for sharing all the details of your newly acquired S&W Model 1917 and all the details of its acquisition. I learned what a yoke detent is; I hadn't known that such a term or feature ever existed on S&W revolvers.

May you long enjoy that fine piece!

Hello S&W38,

I'm glad you found some of my posts useful to you. That is a bit of a surprise, as I have only been studying Smith and Wesson M1917s for the past month or two. I guess even a rookie can even help every once in a while.

Now, if you wanted to know something about American Civil War small arms, I would be in a much better position to help you with that subject, as I have been researching, collecting and firing original weapons of that vintage for more than 25 years now.

And I do hope to enjoy this great gun that I was fortunate enough to purchase recently. ;-)

Carl Casto

Carl Casto · May 20, 2015

bettis1 said:
Carl,

I did not see the auction but as I was reading your first post and the description of the seller (before any pictures were posted) I said to myself: "This is going to be a nice gun!" I did not know who the seller was but when you have read the descriptions of thousands of guns over the years you get a feeling for the thoroughness and accuracy of a vendor. This one just said "Buy it if you can!" Congratulations.

Bob

P.S. If you don't have a copy, try to find an out of print copy of U.S. Handguns of World War II by Charles Pate. It will be extremely helpful in your new collecting venue.

B.

Hi Bettis ... (love your image of Vincent van Gogh),

I agree 100% with your comments. I felt exactly the same way after I read the seller's description as you apparently did.

Of course, the photos of the M 1917 didn't hurt either ... ;-0

And yes, thank you for mentioning the fine book
"U.S. Handguns of World War II" by Charles W. Pate. I had seen it mentioned in earlier posts on this fine forum a month or two ago, and acquired a copy. It is once again available, and it was a great resource for me on the M 1917, probably more than any other book that I read.

I have the good fortune to be within an hour's drive of an art museum who has, as one of its permanent exhibits, a wonderful collection of firearms spanning many centuries. I am also friends with their research librarian, and I can access through him various books on firearms of different types in the facility's library. ... They had several relevant books, but not Pate's, so I acquired that one on my own ... ;-)

Best,

Carl

Muley Gil · May 20, 2015

Carl Casto said:
Hello S&W38,

I'm glad you found some of my posts useful to you. That is a bit of a surprise, as I have only been studying Smith and Wesson M1917s for the past month or two. I guess even a rookie can even help every once in a while.

Now, if you wanted to know something about American Civil War small arms, I would be in a much better position to help you with that subject, as I have been researching, collecting and firing original weapons of that vintage for more than 25 years now.

And I do hope to enjoy this great gun that I was fortunate enough to purchase recently. ;-)

Carl Casto

Do you belong to the North-South Skirmish Association?

Cyrano · May 21, 2015

Carl Casto: You mention shooting a pre WW I Springfield rifle. You shold be aware that this is one of the 'single heat treat' variety. The receiver and bolt are brittle and have a very small margin of safety. Most people don't shoot them, or do so only with light, cast bullet loads.

05CarbonDRZ · May 21, 2015

You can shoot that 1917 no problem.It has obviously been shot and carried quite a bit.The Bluing is already worn off most of the high spots and there is good amount of Holster wear.You will not hurt it by running some Rounds through it,Or the value.

gjamison · May 21, 2015

This is my serial number 13.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ast-post-new-pics-letter-update-last-pic.html

Carl Casto · May 21, 2015

Muley Gil said:
Do you belong to the North-South Skirmish Association?

Hi Muley Gil,

No, I do not belong to the NSSA.

However, I do have some friends who are members, and I have attended some NSSA events over the years.

Carl

Carl Casto · May 21, 2015

Cyrano said:
Carl Casto: You mention shooting a pre WW I Springfield rifle. You shold be aware that this is one of the 'single heat treat' variety. The receiver and bolt are brittle and have a very small margin of safety. Most people don't shoot them, or do so only with light, cast bullet loads.

Hi Cyrano,

Thanks for mentioning this.

I am aware of the ongoing debate regarding the potential dangers of shooting Low Numbered M 1903 Springfield rifles.

In conducting research before purchasing my M1903, I quickly learned from viewing several relevant message boards that the two topics sure to begin / continue a long-term debate regarding these rifles are as follows:

1. Is it safe to shoot a low-numbered M1903?

2. Did Sgt. Alvin York use a M 1903 Springfield or an M 1917 "American Enfield" on that day in France during WW I that earned him the Medal of Honor.

There are very strong feelings on both sides of both of these questions.

After much research, discussion with gunsmiths and armorers, and careful consideration of both sides of the matter, I have chosen to occasionally shoot my low-numbered M 1903 Springfield. I always wear safety glasses, of course, and also realize the potential risks of shooting my LN M 1903. While I don't shoot it as often as I fire my other 20th Century martial arms, I do at times shoot it.

One of the better articles I have read on this subject is linked below:

Information On M1903 Receiver Failures

I do understand and appreciate your concern, Cyrano.

Carl

Carl Casto · May 21, 2015

05CarbonDRZ said:
You can shoot that 1917 no problem.It has obviously been shot and carried quite a bit.The Bluing is already worn off most of the high spots and there is quite a bit of Holster wear.You will not hurt it One bit by running some Rounds through it,Or the value.

Thanks, Carbon, I appreciate your feedback and the factors that you mentioned.

Carl

Carl Casto · May 21, 2015

gjamison said:
This is my serial number 13.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ast-post-new-pics-letter-update-last-pic.html

Hi Gjamison,

Thanks for sharing your magnificent early M 1917 with me.

The number 13 has always been my favorite ever since Frank Ryan of the Cleveland Browns quarterbacked the Brownies to an upset victory of Johnny Unitas' heavily favored Baltimore Colts in the NFL Championship Game of the 1964 season. Ryan wore # 13, of course.

Your M 1917 and the posts within it raise some interesting questions. I have one or two questions that I would like to add to the mix, but haven't the time at the moment.

Will ask my questions later, though.

Thanks again for sharing that beautiful specimen of what must be one of the lowest numbered S&W Model 1917 in existence.

I would say the lowest, but the seller of mine told me that a friend of his owns SN 11.

Carl

Carl Casto · May 22, 2015

bettis1 said:
Carl,

I did not see the auction but as I was reading your first post and the description of the seller (before any pictures were posted) I said to myself: "This is going to be a nice gun!" I did not know who the seller was but when you have read the descriptions of thousands of guns over the years you get a feeling for the thoroughness and accuracy of a vendor. This one just said "Buy it if you can!" Congratulations.

Bob

P.S. If you don't have a copy, try to find an out of print copy of U.S. Handguns of World War II by Charles Pate. It will be extremely helpful in your new collecting venue.

B.

Hi again, Bob,

As you apparently own a copy of Pate's book, I wanted to pick your brain (and the brains of others) regarding one of the things Pate writes in his section about the M 1917 revolver.

According to Pate on page 72, with only a few exceptions, " ... S&W does not appear to have paid any attention to serial numbers. Unlike Colt, S&W did not deliver revolvers in numerical order. As with their commercial production, M1917 revolvers were completed and shipped with a sometimes wide range of serial numbers in a given shipment."

Pate then goes on to show on page 74 a National Archives document showing a list of 25 S&W M 1917 revolvers shipped in a case in May of 1918 which denotes the following serial numbers in the same shipped box:

26541
29070
43061
43278
44443
45026
48737
49969
59369
52447
53860
53882
56218
56377
57248
57446
57524
58988
59103
59346
59357
59375
60204
62573
62918

This seems contrary to most business standards, as S&W would be at a disadvantage it seems to me regarding quality control, accounting and accountability regarding revolvers shipped.

Also, considering the urgency surrounding the shipping of these M 1917's to the front, wouldn't a "First In, First Out" type of shipping order proved to have been more logical and efficient?

Would you or some other members care to comment on the possible reasons for S&W doing this?

Thanks in advance,

Carl Casto

tseaha · May 22, 2015

Carl,
Shoot it! What's the use of owning a nice firearm if you just "look"
at it? If it were mine, I'd take it to the police range ( I'm an LEO), qualify with it, and carry it as a duty weapon. I'm not restricted on gun type. Enjoy your collection.

bettis1 · May 22, 2015

Carl,

You are exactly right that the Smith & Wesson Factory did not ship their firearms in serial numerical order as Colt and most other manufacturers did.

It has always been a puzzlement to many of us why they didn't use the Serials since one of the primary reasons that a manufacturer puts a serial number on their product is for inventory control. Of course, in the case of those early guns there was no governmental mandate to number them.

In the case of S&W, they apparently used a first in-last out shipping protocol. With a model that was in high demand (such as the M1917) those numbers might be relatively close but with a model that had a low turnover, an early numbered gun which was first into the vault might be shipped many years after a later numbered gun.

Another, much later complication of the lack of sequential shipping has to do with the determination of what guns fall under the Curio & Relic classification of the BATF. That is a rolling ascertainment since firearms that are 50 years old receive that C&R status. Since there is no logical link between the serial number on a gun and the date of manufacture, the BATF has determined that the date that the Factory shipped the gun is the C&R starting point. Roy Jinks provides that information to them and that is acceptable.

Bob

P.S. In the case of gun models which were produced over a long period of time and/or had a significant number of variations it is often possible for knowledgable collectors to pin down the approximate date range of the production. As I indicated above, that may differ greatly from the shipping date that Roy's letter gives us.

Carl Casto · May 22, 2015

tseaha said:
Carl,
Shoot it! What's the use of owning a nice firearm if you just "look"
at it? If it were mine, I'd take it to the police range ( I'm an LEO), qualify with it, and carry it as a duty weapon. I'm not restricted on gun type. Enjoy your collection.

Hi tseaha,

Thanks for your input. I tend to agree with your viewpoint. Just don't want to potentially devalue this M 1917 if shooting it occasionally will do so.

You guys on this S&W Forum are much more knowledgeable about this particular subject and weapon than I am. That, or course, is why I posed the question. Thus far, with only a handful of responses in, there is a slight edge toward shooting it as opposed to not shooting it.

By the way it is interesting that, if the revolver was yours, you say you would "take it to the police range ( I'm an LEO), qualify with it, and carry it as a duty weapon. I'm not restricted on gun type."

I'd be curious to know what you currently use as your service weapon, and why you would prefer to use the M 1917 over the pistol or revolver you know use as a Law Enforcement Officer?

I actually wasn't aware the law enforcement officers in some regions / organizations / precincts were still permitted to choose their own handgun as their duty weapon. But then again, I don't know that much about such things.

Thanks again,

Carl Casto

Carl Casto · May 23, 2015

bettis1 said:
Carl,

You are exactly right that the Smith & Wesson Factory did not ship their firearms in serial numerical order as Colt and most other manufacturers did.

It has always been a puzzlement to many of us why they didn't use the Serials since one of the primary reasons that a manufacturer puts a serial number on their product is for inventory control. Of course, in the case of those early guns there was no governmental mandate to number them.

In the case of S&W, they apparently used a first in-last out shipping protocol. With a model that was in high demand (such as the M1917) those numbers might be relatively close but with a model that had a low turnover, an early numbered gun which was first into the vault might be shipped many years after a later numbered gun.

Another, much later complication of the lack of sequential shipping has to do with the determination of what guns fall under the Curio & Relic classification of the BATF. That is a rolling ascertainment since firearms that are 50 years old receive that C&R status. Since there is no logical link between the serial number on a gun and the date of manufacture, the BATF has determined that the date that the Factory shipped the gun is the C&R starting point. Roy Jinks provides that information to them and that is acceptable.

Bob

P.S. In the case of gun models which were produced over a long period of time and/or had a significant number of variations it is often possible for knowledgable collectors to pin down the approximate date range of the production. As I indicated above, that may differ greatly from the shipping date that Roy's letter gives us.

Thanks, Bob, for your reply.

I presume that since my #153 was among the first M 1917s manufactured by S&W, it most likely would have been among the first of the M 1917s shipped by S&W as well. Not a certainty, but a probability at least.

You mention Roy's letter in your postscript. Are you referring to Roy Jinks? If so, what kind of additional info would be contained in a letter from Roy Jinks, how would I go about getting one, and how much would it cost?

Thanks,

Carl

bettis1 · May 23, 2015

Carl,

Yes, the letter comes from Roy Jinks, the factory historian. If you open the "Downloads" file at the top of this thread you will find the form to order the letter. The cost is $50 and the wait time is probably several months at this time. (Roy works alone and he will be tied up with the annual S&W Collectors Assoc. Symposium in a couple of weeks.

The letter will contain some "boilerplate" info on the particular model and the shipping date and original shipping destination along with the original configuration of your gun.

Bob

Carl Casto · May 24, 2015

bettis1 said:
Carl,

Yes, the letter comes from Roy Jinks, the factory historian. If you open the "Downloads" file at the top of this thread you will find the form to order the letter. The cost is $50 and the wait time is probably several months at this time. (Roy works alone and he will be tied up with the annual S&W Collectors Assoc. Symposium in a couple of weeks.

The letter will contain some "boilerplate" info on the particular model and the shipping date and original shipping destination along with the original configuration of your gun.

Bob

Thanks for the info, Bob,

If this M 1917 were yours, would you get a Roy Jinks' letter for it?

Carl

bettis1 · May 25, 2015

Carl,

I generally order a letter from Roy for every one of the older guns that I have. (by older, I mean any up to the mid-late fifties). With the increased worth of most older guns of collector condition, the $50 cost is a small % of their value. Every bit of history that we can develop on these "old timers" adds to our knowledge.

As S&W collectors, we are unique to have access to Roy Jinks' knowledge and records. We won't always have that resource and when it is gone, those guns which are lettered will be more cherished. Think of it this way: How would you like to ask a deceased ancestor or someone who lived in the past some question but now cannot because they are no longer available to offer their information??

Having said all of that, the military M1917's are a special group. Most likely, the letter will tell you the date which it shipped but it will probably tell you that it shipped to the U. S. Government at Springfield Armory, Springfield MA. So you are the only one who can make the determination to order or not. If it were mine, I would; simply because of the low number but it depends upon just how dear $50 is to you right now.

Bob

05CarbonDRZ · May 25, 2015

I will go the other way on the Letter.If it was any Gun other than a 1917 I would say to Letter it.With a 1917 all You will get is that it shipped to Springfield Armory and a date.That info will not add any value to the Gun.I only Letter Guns with special barrel lengths,sights,etc to confirm that they are original or not.With your 1917 it is what it is,A low Serial number original example.

bettis1 · May 25, 2015

See Carl, Alex and I gave you both sides of the same coin. We agree on what the letter will tell you about your M1917. So only you can say whether that is of enough interest to you to order a letter.

Bob

..... Model 1917 S&W revolver with Low Serial Number 153

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