Update...Letter From Roy received today. See last post in thread.

New pics added on the rear target sight..see post 30

I was asked about this 1906 (per serial number) .32 HE today. Of course it caught my attention and I have spoken to the owner via phone only.
The guns serial is 49 something something something. I can't remember, but it is 5 digit. I asked the major questions and found that there is a B preceding the serial number on the bottom of the barrel. So, it was blue when it left the factory, but its nickel now. I had him pull the stocks and again, no N stamp and no other marking or dates to indicate it was returned to the factory. The early 32s were, for the most part, shipped with service sights and this one has a target sight with a modified front sight.

The engraving ??? The stocks ??? Hmmm....
The owner is sure it was factory engraved, however, everything else on this particular revolver says aftermarket. Only way to be sure is with a letter unless you guys see something I am unfamiliar with (which, in this case, is a lot)..
I also asked him to run the stocks across his teeth and tell me what it felt like. He said smooth, but then changed course and said gritty. The only marking on the rear of the stocks is the letter "I" which he describes as etched into the stocks. He wants to know if its real MOP.
So, what say you? What is your opinion so I can pass it along..He also asked for the value as is.
Thanks,
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Hello Hank, need more pics of rear and front and grips off. MOPs appear to be factory. If finish was changed, no collector value. Little difficult to tell anything from one pic and no Sn. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I would go so far as to say it was done "in the style of" a factory engraved, but not done by the factory. It has (most probably ) had the rear and front sight added. The finish is evidently not factory, but the grips do appear to be. While it will have no "Collector" value, it will have value to those who admire S&W's with "added" features. I am no expert, but would guess it would probably bring in the $600 to $750 range, provided the mechanics are good, and the rest of the gun is at least as good as the one view shows.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Mike, the serial number is 453xx. I don't remember the last two numbers of it though. Any other way to tell if true MOP? I told him the stocks may be worth more than the gun.
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Have him heat up a pin and stick it to the back of one of the panels. If it melts and smells like plastic, it's plastic. If nothing, it's pearl.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I was going to suggest the hot needle idea but was afraid he might mess up the stocks.

A couple more pics...

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Hank, this is a 32-20 right? 32 Win. is the same. Hot needle is the best.
Apparently you do not have the gun in hand. Real MOP have a glow about
them. Very 3-D. Like glass. My opinion, $700 is a stretch. But opinions are like elbows, everybody has two. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

No, it's an I frame by the looks of it. It says .32 Long on the side.

I think the top photo clearly shows the right stock panel to be MOP. The medallions suggest they are factory.

I also suspect the engraving is not factory, and photos of the top strap would help clarify if the sights are original (as would having the SN stamped on the rear sight leaf).

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Well excuse me! I did not have my K-mart glasses clean. I had a steak/cheese sub for lunch and must have splattered some cheese up on the lens.I only got one good eye left. Best. Will probably happen again.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Dirty glasses? There can be no excuse! You forfeit all your S&Ws for this shame, PM me for my address and you can send them all to me.



That rear sight sure looks like a S&W sight in profile.

Does the rear sight blade have a white outline? I'm wondering if we have some King parts going on here.

I really like that revolver by the way, but I am one of those weirdos who likes old modified guns.

"From my cold dead hands" do my beloved girls leave me.
Hey Weirdo, good banter. I like it. I also like old modified guns, but not $700 worth. Some of those old post war Navy machinists could do amazing quality work. I do miss the 1950s and 1960s. Best and good hunting.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Hank,

I agree, clearly an I frame, a very nice and unique ".32 HE Model of 1903 - 1st Change" likely from mid 1906. The solid hammer nose (firing pin) rivet
substantiates that vintage as well. The target sights look completely factory original. The front sight protocol in that period was to mill off the integral
forged 1/2 round front blade and mill a mortise for a pinned in target blade of any number of factory or after market styles. The one shown appears to
be the most common factory Paine bead style. This can be verified by finding the gun's serial # on the underside of the rear sight, on the front blade
and usually on the rear blade; all must be removed to see however.

The finish appears to have more of a silver plating luster rather than nickel, is that a possibility when the owner observes it in person? Again, not factory
or the grip frame would usually have an <S> for silver plated or a P in a circle for plated.

Although photos don't facilitate identification that well, stocks are factory MOP with 99.9% certainly IMO with proper factory recessed gold plated
medallions of the period. A hot pin poked on the backside one would smell something akin to having teeth drilled at the dentist, but only on ivory,
stag antler, or bone, not MOP. The I on back of stocks indicates they are for an I frame revolver which is another indication of factory stocks. But
the most telling indicator that they were originally specified as an optional order from the factory on the gun, is that the serial # does not appear
to be stamped on the grip frame forestrap, so must be on the butt.

The significance of that observation is, and presuming my evaluation of the target sights as factory original is correct, the gun would have normally
been shipped with black Gutta Percha hard rubber extension stocks, and therefore have the serial # on the forestrap which was protocol since ~ 1891.

If a letter verifies the originality of factory installed target sights and MOP stocks, one could about double the value figure above or more. Perhaps
even more could be reaped at auction. The period engraving if not original may still add a bit of value if quality done.

It's fun to observe these rarities and I hope this is helpful,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hank, All .32 HEs, Mod. 1903,ser. #s 45301 t0 45399 were made May 7, 1906, as part of a production order of 200 guns, and were all blue guns with black HR grips. None were target models or engraved. The subject gun got it's embellishments after market. Ed.

Regardless of who did the engraving, I like it. It strongly resembles some of the Oscar Young work (I think he would have been at the factory in the early 1900's). Someone will be along shortly to correct me...

Here is a photo of and link to a thread with some of Oscar's work...





source: Factory engraved 1903 first change target AND it’s likely the work of Oscar Young!!!

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Made a trade for the revolver today. Couldn't help myself.

First: the stocks have no effect on a hot needle. No melting and no smoke. Feel gritty across teeth. I am now in the belief that they are real..Anybody care to guess their value as I am not sure. On the back of the stock there appears to be a scribbled "I" or "H". See pics. I would like to know value.

Rest of pics below. Please note the areas where the engraving appears as well as how well the front target stock fits the service stock area, (it is made like it it belongs) it seems to seamlessly flow into the front of the barrel. Could it have been a target model as it fits like no other rear sight I have seen.

So, on to the pics...and give me your opinions..Are the front targets original. Could the engraving be ( I know its far fetched) done from the factory as it appears in neat places, please see the engraving on either side of the rear sight.

Please, all questions and comments appreciated.











The stocks. Passed the tooth grittiness test and a red hot needle would not penetrate.

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Hank
SWCA 2945

JACKPOT!!!

The grips are Factory pearls. Quit pokin em with hot needles.

The engraving is almost certainly one of the Youngs. Possibly Oscar- those scrolls look mighty nice......

I see NO indication of a refinish.
The Factory is known to have pulled a blue gun from the vault for a special order.....

The sights look Factory.

GET A LETTER!

Any rework marks on the left gripframe?
Are you confident you can remove the rear sight with no damage?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Ok, the consensus is factory pearl stocks..They are in immaculate shape. Whats the current value of stocks like these?

The engraving I am still puzzled about. Why engrave a blued gun only to have it refinished in nickel? Could it have been pulled off the line after the "B" was stamped, but finished in nickel instead?

There are no rework marks on the grip frame as I am familiar with them.

I am fairly confident I could remove the rear sight without problem, but what would I be looking for. The rear sight is the smallest I have ever seen. The sight hole is maybe 1/16" and lines up perfectly with the front sight.

Also failed to mention all serial numbers match.

Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

if they are original target rear sights, the frame will have a half round slot milled in it for the nut that the rear screw goes into. and the sight will be serialized...just learned this from the guys after they had me look at mine.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

RKMesa, this target sights seem to be the same as the ones onmy revolver. Any other info on them you can pass along?
Thanks,
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Would they be the same serial number to the gun?

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Hank
SWCA 2945

I don't know much about the early HE's, other than that one looked "right" to me. The engraving looks factory to me as well. Lee has given you his thoughts and I have to agree - get a letter. Mike Priwer also knows quite a bit about these early ones, perhaps he'll be along shortly. I cannot tell from your photos, but it almost looks like the finish on the extractor rod knob is a different finish - perhaps color cased like the hammer/trigger? If it is color cased, that would be another indication that this is a factory nickel finish, as many of the early knobs were color cased - not blued or nickeled.

If you do get the rear sight off (do not bugger those tiny screw heads), if factory, it would typically be serial numbered to the gun as well, seeing as they were custom fitted to each individual gun.

Keep us posted on what you learn.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I would have to agree that everything looks " right" to be a factory engraved target model, regardless of the production records listing the gun as a plain blue gun ( I'm relying on the serial number series quoted above as being accurate) The production log does list target models with serial numbers not too far distant. It does look like Oscar Young type of engraving, and if the gun was a blue gun pulled from inventory to fill an order for an engraved target model,(which is known to be possible at S&W ) then it was made up in the Service Dep't and addition of the rear target sight would not have required any serial number stamped on the sight base as the gun would have been a one off project, with no mixing of the parts with other guns in the refinishing process. However, that is no guarantee a serial number wasn't stamped on the sight base anyway. It will be interesting to see what a factory letter will say. Ed.

1. Factory MOP stocks = $300 - $400 in such nice shape as yours.

2. With hundreds of completed guns waiting in the vault to be sold, why invest in building a new one? Instead, pull one from the vault, modify it and engrave it;
the bluing would have to be re-done anyway so nickel is just as easy. Yes it was a completed gun if stamped with a B for blue; bluing is pretty much
the last step of completion, then adding the stocks. Lee's advise is the only plausible explanation, and as he posted, it NEEDS a letter. If any gun needs a letter,
this one does; it won't tell you when or what the gun's completed configuration was as did Ed's, but it will tell when and in what configuration it was when it
SOLD and SHIPPED from the factory.

3. No extra S or diamond stamped anywhere?

4. Factory sights: Post #13 - "This can be verified by finding the gun's serial # on the underside of the rear sight, on the front blade and usually on
the rear blade; all must be removed to see however."

Photo by Mike Priwer

As Ed posted, there may not be any #s stamped even if factory because it may be a one off done in the Svc Dept with no other guns having the same
modifications made to mix up parts with. The same potential reason the serial # is not on the MOP stocks. NOTE: soak those tiny screws with
penetrating oil before attempting to turn them.

5. W/o counting the stocks, there's 5 serial # stamped locations on the gun itself and normally 3 on the three target sight parts. You'll need good light
and optical aids to find accurate results, including an 'attitude' that the serial #s are there for some locations!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Richard,

I agree...With a reasonably high degree of certainty likely the work of Oscar Young!! And Yes...He was engraving for the Factory at that time...Although he is known to have done engraving at His Shop as well!!

Given that...Most definitely a Research Letter is in order to determine if the Revolver "Shipped" as "Factory-Engraved"...Or Otherwise!!

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Masterpiece

You definitely need a letter on this. Go ahead and submit it, I'll bet Roy won't send it back. Just may take a few months until you hear back.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

You guys are great. Thanks for all the information. I am on duty right now, but I did bring the gun with me. When I have some down time, I will take a much closer look at everything mentioned.
Stay tuned...
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

I think the rear sight leaf is a later addition. The elevation screw looks to be the
type that pulls the sight leaf down, as opposed to the ones that pushes the sight leaf
up. This type of sight leaf is somewhere around the middle 1915's .

Mike Priwer

Jim (Hondo44),
Thanks for answering my questions. It was very helpful that you answered them in the manner as I posed them..

I got a few minutes between calls this afternoon and put some penetrating oil on the sight screws.
I could get the rear screw loose but was afraid to put more torque on the front screw as it is the tighter of the two. I will let the penetrating oil do its job before I try again. I was able to see a number of some sorts under the sight, but it is impossible to tell what it is without taking the rest of the sight off.
All serial numbers and production match as I have stated. There is also a "B" other the ejector on the cylinder. There is also a "B" on the frame under the stocks. The only other mark is the letter "U". The ejector star has a number as well, but my eyes can't read it.

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Got the rear target sight off today. Someone in the past had tried before and the screw was just a tad bit buggered up.
The serial number on the target sight matches the gun!!!
I should have mentioned it has the 3 1/4 inch barrel in my earlier posts.
The pearl stocks cleaned up very nicely as well.
Everything is looking real good as far as it being legit.
A number of you replied that I need a factory letter. I will be sending that in as soon as Mr. Jinks opens the process back up, I will immediately and gladly pay my money for the definitive info on how it was shipped and if Oscar Young engraved it. I wish I could get the answer now, but I know that is not possible.
Thats the last step...me getting the info that it was factory engraved and nickeled.
In the mean time ; more pics of the serial under the front sight and the cleaned up stocks.









As always, if you have info or advice on this particular gun, please let me know.

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Bravo!!! Lee was right, pulled from inventory and factory modified, that bodes well for the engraving/nickel being factory as well although not a lead pipe cinch.

For the front sight pin, also soak a couple of minutes. Use a cupped tip pin punch; might have to fix up from a flat tip punch. To keep punch from riccochetting
off pin onto barrel, tape a piece of copper or brass sheet as a shield over the barrel and pin with a hole just big enough for the punch to fit thru. Pins usually went
in from left to right. You can determine the exit hole side of the site base by the slight raised burr around the hole. Remove pin in opposite direction.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,
Did you say there would be a serial number on the front sight as well?

EDIT: I just read the earlier posts again and there should be a number on the front sight blade..

I assume that number would be on the area under the mount where the pin rests. Not sure I have the guts to remove the pin and look.

Thanks again for all the info and help.
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

With the rear sight confirmed, I wouldn't bother to attempt to take the front sight off. Too much chance to mark it. You've got a winner!

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Hank good to see you with another winner.

Hope you get a trifecta and find it was shipped to a miss Annie Oakley

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Good for you!


Why bother?
Why risk damage????
Even after removing the pin, I have sometimes encountered front blades that are so tight in the base, I had to clamp them between hard oak blocks in a very strong Wilton vise, and pull with both hands on the gun.
Getting a blade that tight back in without damage can be challenging.

If it letters as a Target, do you really NEED to see the number on the blade?

ETA-
That is a Sheard Gold Bead, and there is a good chance the invoice will mention it since it was an OPTION.
Be sure and TELL Roy it has a Sheard.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I have to admit that 2015 was a great gun year for me and it appears that 2016 is off to a great start as well!

I am blessed that I have a wonderful wife who puts up with my Smith and Wesson collection and the many hours I spend in my workshop cleaning, working, and searching for guns.

She also says you guys and this forum are my enablers.

Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

A few more points-


Your gun does NOT have the sight Mike referred to.
Your gun has the sight correct for its vintage.
If you take the fat elevation screw out of the frame, note that it is split on the bottom. They were flared slightly to add tension.
Don't put it back in upside down!
They can be hard to start because of that flare- they're wider than the hole sometimes......


I blew up some pics.
I feel fairly certain Oscar cut it. His scrolls just have a certain look to them.
He was at S&W till 1916.
Brothers Eugene and Robert were at S&W during the Young dynasty, but not as long as Oscar.
The one piece I've seen by Eugene indicates a different style from Oscar.
I've never seen a confirmed Robert piece.
Gustave was long dead when your gun was cut.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,
You have, along with everyone who who has replied, provided me with a wealth of information on this revolver.
I thank all of you.

I am not going to mess with the front sight. I will finish cleaning it and take some hi-res photos of it.

This gun was used. It was holstered and carried and used and the finish shows that. Its certainly not 100%, but it is definitely presentable. The cleaning I have done to it so far has removed years of grime. The last step is a nice coat of Ren wax. I will post the pics once I am done this evening.

Thanks again,
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

If you take a look at the S&W Engraving catalog for the time this gun was made, there are 8 styles of engraving pictured, all in the style of Oscar Young, so he probably engraved the guns that were pictured in the catalog and I believe he did the bulk of S&W engraved guns of the period. I've seen quite a few of his engraved guns and have never seen his initials or signature on one. If you compare the subject gun to the pictures in the catalog, it fits right in. Eugene Young is a different story. He was equal to, if not better than Gustav. He once engraved a sample plate, the size of a postage stamp, for the US Mint's engraving dep't that none of the Mint's engravers could come close to duplicating. Ed.

Final pics of cleaned revolver..

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Hank
SWCA 2945

Hank

Congrats on a fine revolver! I am the owner of the gun that RKMesa referenced - a lettered Oscar Young engraved 1903 32 1st change target, like yours, except mine has a blued finish with the 4.25 in barrel. Just like you, I went with my instincts despite the nay-sayer "experts" who probably don't own engraved guns, yet will freely comment on factory vs non-factory engraving, and the like. I am pleased that you got straight answers in the thread after the plethora of misinformation that was posted! I guess some people like to chime in whether or not they actually know anything about Oscar Young, engraving in general, or early S&W target HE revolvers. Personally, when I first opened the thread I thought the gun looked very legit. It reminded me of mine, and another one that I nearly bought. Gun engraving is certainly another realm all together when it comes to gun collecting. To look at a revolver and assess the engraver's talent, or the origin, or time period, etc. takes a lot experience and guessing about it helps no one. Imagine if you would have sold it for $300 as a refinished, after market engraved gun with "fake" pearls (as some surmised you revolver to be), imagine how you would feel now. I'm glad you got the info you needed.

Its beautiful

Note on the grips - in my experience, having owned several factory pearl gripped guns which lettered with pearl, and owning several pairs of spare factory pearl grips (I collect S&W grips ) the easiest way to tell is simply the presence of the medallion. Its very rare for pearl grips to have gold recessed medallions but be aftermarket. Another way to tell is the backside of the grips, S&W pearl grips are thicker and heavier, and they don't usually have scalloped portions on the inside of the panels. Since the gun was special order, chances are it did in fact ship with the pearls.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

Thanks Jim!!
The forum has been so helpful and I truly learn something every time I lurk here.
This one will be lettered as soon as possible and I will update as soon as I receive the info on how it left the factory.
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

i've always disliked plated guns. never cared much for engraving. swore i'd never buy one with pearl grips. thought target sites on a pocket gun were a silly affectation. that being said, the op is lucky i didn't see this one before he did. color me green with envy.
iron mike

After a brief wait, the letter arrived today. Its such a joy to have the unopened letter in my hands. Its like Christmas, the anticipation is so much fun..
Anyway, here is the letter. I should mention that a number of you had surmised that the gun was pulled from stock as a blued revolver and then had the engraving and plating done and pearl stocks added as a special order prior to shipment.
[IMG][/IMG]

All I can say is you guys were exactly right!! So much collected knowledge on this forum!! Thanks for sharing, all the input, and help!! I will contact the historical society and see if they can pull any more info..
Hank

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Hank
SWCA 2945

I would not have thought that to be factory engraving. That's why I am not an expert. Original factory pearls, to boot. Excellent. A rare target model with engraving and factory pearls. Lord have mercy.

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No life story has happy end.

Heck of a score there, I'm jealous. Congratulations again!

Congrats on a great find.....

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Cool, glad to be wrong about the engraving!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Nice find. It is frustrating that S&W records from this period generally do not have any address info on single special order guns like this because there is a good chance that F.P. Hall will turn out to be an interesting person at that time. My only gun lettered to an individual like this fortunately had a monogram to add additional information and allow me to identify who it was shipped to and uncover a fascinating history that is still unfolding. I don't know that your chances for identifying this owner definitively are high, but good luck on a rare search.

cb

JACKPOT!!!!!!!! That's a REALLY neat gun on SO many levels! Now we need a range report

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PTLAPTA!