1905 3rd Front Sight Question

jebstuart · #1 02-01-2016, 09:04 PM

Hello all,

I'm hoping someone can help me with this question:

I purchased a 1905 M&P 3rd change (1911 I think) a while back and it has a pinned front sight. I don't think that was a standard option but I don't think it has been refinished & I don't see how the sight could have been done without refinishing.

Any help would be appreciated.

Jeb

Pics attached:

lamarw · #2 02-01-2016, 09:35 PM

You have a beautiful revolver. I am not an expert on the subject; although I have a Model 1904 4th Change.

I did find this picture by Googling if it is of any help. It looks like it has been pinned also in the same place as yours. Look at the 10th picture down at this web site: Smith & Wesson Handguns

The grips/stocks on it are different than your but the same as the ones on my revolver. I have to assume yours are not original.

jebstuart · #3 02-01-2016, 10:02 PM

lamarw,

I see what you mean. I think that front sight is pinned because it's a target model (see rear sight). I also think my stocks are correct for a 1911 vintage 1905 3rd.

I just don't know if the pinned sight was an option with a fixed rear.

Thanks for your input.

opoefc · #4 02-01-2016, 10:02 PM

Smith & Wessons can often be found with small differences from "standard" configurations, such as the pinned front sight on your very nice example. The assembler probably used a target barrel that was handy and had the pinned sight blade feature, so that was what he soft fitted to the frame. No extra charge! There could be a very remote chance that the gun was special ordered as a "half target" with a pinned barrel, for whatever reason. If so, the invoice would so state, if it's still in the archives. Ed.

jebstuart · #5 02-01-2016, 10:06 PM

I have never lettered a Smith. If it left S&W with the sight, what do think the odds are that it would show up in a letter?

lamarw · #6 02-01-2016, 10:14 PM

Sorry Jeb, In my ignorance, I was thinking of the wrong revolver.

Beemer-mark · #7 02-01-2016, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebstuart

lamarw,

I see what you mean. I think that front sight is pinned because it's a target model (see rear sight). I also think my stocks are correct for a 1911 vintage 1905 3rd.

I just don't know if the pinned sight was an option with a fixed rear.

Thanks for your input.

I believe the target front sights were square as opposed to round.

jebstuart · #8 02-01-2016, 10:57 PM

Agreed. I think most of the target fronts were partridge type - not round.

murphydog · #9 02-01-2016, 11:06 PM

If the barrel flat is serial numbered to the frame, I agree with Ed in that it was intended for a Target gun but put on your M & P. Another possibility is the original front blade was removed, a groove milled for a new blade, and the pin installed after leaving the factory. Hard to imagine it going through this process since it is a standard blade; is there a rework date on the left lower side of the grip frame?

Most Target guns of this era I have seen have a gold bead front sight, not the Patridge.

A letter may or may not note anything unusual, unless it was special ordered. It is easy to agree with Ed here too, since he knows so much

.

jebstuart · #10 02-01-2016, 11:22 PM

Good information.

1 - The barrel is numbered to the frame, cylinder, etc.
2 - No re-work date, star or like marking on the grip frame.

Would you guy's bother lettering this revolver?

wheelgun610 · #11 02-02-2016, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebstuart

.... Would you guy's bother lettering this revolver?

I won't try to persuade you one way or the other on that decision. Depends on what you'd hope to find out, and whether it would be worth 50 bucks to you. 99% of factory letters are fairly mundane, but there's always that 1% that make us go wow.

A couple detailed pics of the front sight from the side and top might might possibly shed some light regarding whether or not it's likely it left the factory like that.

At any rate, it's a very nice example of what is known to be the most common S&W revolver they ever made.

Mark

Muley Gil · #12 02-02-2016, 10:42 AM

Welcome to the Forum.

As Ed said, for some reason, now lost to time, this revolver was fitted with a target barrel and then had a standard half moon sight fitted to it.

Or, it might have had a barrel with a standard forged half moon sight that became damaged and it was repaired with a pinned half moon. If this happened during production, there wouldn't be any repair marks, stars, etc, as those were applied to firearms that were returned to the factory after they were sold.

glowe · #13 02-02-2016, 12:25 PM

I have added a few close-ups of a front target sight for this era M&P. Check to see how your sight is attached and inset into the barrel. If it is wide and flat, or if the slot goes through the front and rear of the base, it would almost certainly be added later, since target sights were inset into the base.

jebstuart · #14 02-02-2016, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opoefc

Smith & Wessons can often be found with small differences from "standard" configurations, such as the pinned front sight on your very nice example. The assembler probably used a target barrel that was handy and had the pinned sight blade feature, so that was what he soft fitted to the frame. No extra charge! There could be a very remote chance that the gun was special ordered as a "half target" with a pinned barrel, for whatever reason. If so, the invoice would so state, if it's still in the archives. Ed.

Looks like opoefc nailed it.

And with the picture advice from glowe, it appears to have left the factory with this sight.

Thank you guy's for the help.

Maybe I'll letter it after all. Now I would like to know whether it was a convenient upgrade by an employee or actually ordered this way.

Pic Attached:

handejector · #15 02-02-2016, 09:19 PM

Interesting.
Please post some closeup pics of the sight-
side, top, ends.

Skeetr57 · #16 02-02-2016, 09:25 PM

I believe that when this gun was produced, the standard sights would have been the narrow front blade with a small "U" notch in the round top frame. It appears that the front sight has been replaced with a wider version. I would expect that the rear notch is wider than standard for the time also, and of a square shaped notch. The rear sight could have been widened at any time, but the front blade would have required a replacement as seen.

jebstuart · #17 02-03-2016, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeetr57

I believe that when this gun was produced, the standard sights would have been the narrow front blade with a small "U" notch in the round top frame. It appears that the front sight has been replaced with a wider version. I would expect that the rear notch is wider than standard for the time also, and of a square shaped notch. The rear sight could have been widened at any time, but the front blade would have required a replacement as seen.

Wow, I owe you a cigar - the rear is square. This has been in my safe for ever and I've just never seen it. I never intended to fire it because of it's condition.

Now do I assume it's post factory? It looks good enough to be factory, I think that's why I never noticed it. I don't quite know what to think now.

I just took it outside before sundown to get this picture.

Skeetr57 · #18 02-04-2016, 10:07 AM

I thought that I had posted a comment, but it has disappeared so here goes again. I believe,based on all the info and pictures, that this revolver went back to the factory for the new front blade and the recut rear sight slot and got a reblue at the same time. I would normally expect that it would be marked by a star on the butt by the serial number, but sometimes the star was omitted by accident or by request. In any case, I would expect that it would have a date stamp on the left grip frame under the grips, maybe in very small numerals that require a magnifying glass to read. Without the star or the date stamp, I would suspect the the modifications and refinish were done outside the factory.