Trying to identify type/year of revolver

doublecanister · #1 06-03-2016, 08:30 PM

Greetings. I recently picked up a nickle plated Smith and Wesson 38 DA revolver and I'm having a hard time dating it. See pics. Is this a pre-Model 10 designation? Some details.

- Serial number on grip butt is 571639
- 571629 on rear face of cylinder (same as above)
- Small S&W logo on LEFT side, under the cylinder release.
- 5 screw
- pin frame
- 53177 appears twice on cylinder yoke
- "Made in USA" on side of frame (no address).
- 5 inch barrel
- "38 S&W CTG" on barrel (is this the same as 38 Special?)

Please help. Thank you.

Hondo44 · #2 06-03-2016, 09:21 PM

Welcome aboard!

1. The serial # is in 5 locations on your gun excluding the grips since they're not original.
2. 53177 is an assembly # in 3 locations including inside the sideplate.
3. 38 S&W is not the same as 38 S&W Special and they do not interchange.
4. Most but not all 38 S&W chambered Military & Police revolvers like yours (much too old to be a pre model 10) were made under contract for the British during WW II and are referred to as pre victory models because they do not have a V prefixing the butt serial # yet.

Many of the British guns were converted to 38 Special in varying degrees of correctness. Which cartridge chambers in your gun? If they both chamber, it was a 'quicky' conversion.

Does yours have any British stamps on the left side? If not and they weren't polished off if re-nickel plated, you may have a scarcer USA commercial shipped version.

Does you gun have a B or N prefix to the serial # under the barrel?

doublecanister · #3 06-03-2016, 09:45 PM

Hi Sir, thanks for the reply and great info.

There are no British markings. Like I said, the number on the grip bottom matches the cylinder number (#571639). I'm assuming this is the serial number, right? You said it appears 5 times? Where else? Its only in those two places.

I haven't tried to cartridge the 38 Special yet.

There is no letter prefix under the barrel. There are no markings under the barrel. The S&W roll stamp/patent date appears on the top side of the barrel.

Absalom · #4 06-03-2016, 09:45 PM

This is a curious gun. I believe the serial places the gun in 1928/29 and is too early for it to be a pre-Victory associated with the war, which AFAIK did not start until the upper 600,000's in 1939/40. It is also lacking the lanyard loop, a universal feature of British-bound guns. As Hondo says, this could indeed be an uncommon non-military version of the .38 S&W model.

I'm hoping one of the other forum members with serial data bases will be able to place the gun's putative shipping date more accurately.

doublecanister · #5 06-03-2016, 09:54 PM

Agreed, I thought the British associated guns started around 670,000 serial number range.

Mine does not have a lanyard loop.

Absalom · #6 06-03-2016, 10:03 PM

No letter prefix under the barrel on pre-war guns tends to confirm that the gun was an originally nickeled gun; the collector consensus seems to be that blued guns got a B, but both an N or no letter indicated nickel.

PS: When you say "no markings under the barrel", do you mean no serial number either? In that case, you'd have to entertain the notion of an un-numbered later .38 S&W replacement barrel attached to a 1920s frame. Definitely check what caliber the cylinder will accommodate, either one or both .38 S&W or Special.

doublecanister · #7 06-03-2016, 10:13 PM

Correct, there are no markings or serial under the barrel. The only markings on the barrel are on the top side with patent/roll stamp.

murphydog · #8 06-03-2016, 10:13 PM

Agree, a late 1920s .38 (Special) Military & Police revolver that has a later .38/200 (.38 S & W) barrel swapped onto it. It may have had an un-numbered replacement barrel installed, or the original number on the barrel may have been removed in the nickel refinish.

doublecanister · #9 06-03-2016, 10:20 PM

Thanks guys. I don't think any numbers/markings were removed during a possible re-finishing. If so, other markings would be removed or obscured. As you can see, all markings are fresh and clear.

doublecanister · #10 06-03-2016, 11:10 PM

Note small S&W logo on LEFT side of cylinder.

Hondo44 · #11 06-03-2016, 11:18 PM

I don't think any numbers were removed from the barrel either. If the factory had made the barrel change, they'd stamp it to match the gun's serial number. So a gunsmith replacement. And a very nice job if re-nickeled. I noticed the very clear and deep logo. The gunsmith may have obtained a nickel barrel from S&W and not refinished the gun.

Look on the right side of the grip frame with grip removed for a B or N, and also on the rear cyl face.

Here are the 6 fixed sight frame pre war and until ~1956 hand ejector serial # locations:

1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material.

Next you need to determine if the cyl chambering matches the barrel bore. 38 S&W barrels have larger barrel groove and bore dimensions than .38 Spl. The cyl is original with its matching number but it may have been reamed for 38 S&W. If not the barrel and cyl are mismatched, however 38 Spl is safe to shoot in a 38 S&W bored barrel, the accuracy may just not be S&W's finest.

Military and Police revolvers were chambered in 38 S&W beginning in 1938.

doublecanister · #12 06-03-2016, 11:35 PM

I checked the rounds. The 38 Special rounds fit perfectly in the cylinder. Is that definitive for a 38sp cylinder?

And...there is a clear N on the inside of the grips. Looks like original nickle finish!

So it looks like a 38sp cylinder and a 38 S&W barrel? Not a major problem? Will 38sp be too hot for the barrel?

So it looks like a late 1920s frame and a late 1930s/early 40s rebarrel, but mismatched calibers. Strange that a (good) gunsmith would allow that to happen.

DWalt · #13 06-03-2016, 11:57 PM

All indications make it certain to be a late 1927 M&P in .38 Special which somewhere along the line had the original barrel replaced outside the factory. There were huge numbers of 5" M&P barrels made in .38 S&W, and in fact that was the standard barrel length for the British service revolvers made from 1940 through 1945. The bore diameter of the .38 S&W barrel is slightly larger than those for the .38 Special, but that shouldn't hurt anything.

doublecanister · #14 06-04-2016, 12:03 AM

Makes sense to me. Thanks so much for the replies. I enjoyed the detective work. Glad to see the finish is original too.

What would you value it at?

Hondo44 · #15 06-04-2016, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublecanister

I checked the rounds. The 38 Special rounds fit perfectly in the cylinder. Is that definitive for a 38sp cylinder?

And...there is a clear N on the inside of the grips. Looks like original nickle finish!

So it looks like a 38sp cylinder and a 38 S&W barrel? Not a major problem? Will 38sp be too hot for the barrel?

So it looks like a late 1920s frame and a late 1930s/early 40s rebarrel, but mismatched calibers. Strange that a (good) gunsmith would allow that to happen.

Bravo on the nickel finish.
NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamps also found: ahead of pre war serial #s on the, rear face of yoke, and behind the extractor star. The occasional absence of either the 'B' or 'N' in all locations can also indicate that it left the factory nickeled.

The barrel strength is the same for both calibers and in fact the 38 special's .357" bullets will create slightly less pressure in the larger bored barrel.

There is only a minute difference in case diameter for the 38 S&W so the cyl still might be counter bored, but only chambering a round will verify before we can get to the value.

doublecanister · #16 06-04-2016, 12:17 AM

The serial number appears on BOTH the rear face of the cylinder and the rear of the extractor. Both matching. No 'B' or 'N' stamps on the cylinder or yoke.

jebstuart · #17 06-04-2016, 01:26 AM

Very nice nickel revolver. If you're like me your conundrum is whether to shoot it with that nice nickel finish. If it were mine (and unfortunately it's not), I would shoot it, it's made for it with that slightly oversized bore (low pressures). I would clean it thoroughly, oil it properly & dry the nickel finish as completely as I could and store it without fingerprints or the stocks.
Congrats on a great revolver,
Jeb

lebomm · #18 06-04-2016, 02:43 AM

doublecanister;
You really need to check those chambers with a .38 S&W cartridge. If it's rechambered to .38 Special (.38 S&W Special), the Special cartridge will fit, but the cylinder will still accept the .38 S&W or .380 Mk II (the British military designation). An original .38 Spl cylinder will not accept the .38 S&W. Let us know, if you would, please.

Larry