32 Regulation Police you don't see every day (nickel short-barrel target)-->LETTERED!

Göring's S&W · #1 07-17-2016, 09:12 PM

Recently a friend of mine found the below revolver for sale online and asked my opinion of it. I naturally loved it, and told him it looked righteous. We then estimated values, and he nearly bought it, but he was not sure about buying it for various personal reasons. I told him "if you pass, I will buy it" and a few days later, he elected to pass on this great I frame revolver. I think I may owe him one

although I gave him a great deal on a revolver some time back.

I wanted a Regulation Police target for some time now, so I was very happy to get this one. Of course, I always envisioned myself getting a blue 6in example, in 38 S&W. This one is vastly different! This one is in 32 S&W long and the barrel is 4.25 in. I can probably count on one hand the number of Regulation Police targets I have seen online. I can't recall ever seeing one in person. Of course, all except for 1 that I saw were blued finish (CORRECTION - the other RP target in nickel that I *thought* I remembered was a gun in bmg60's thread from 4-6-16. I checked however, and his gun is a nickel 1903 no change target, not a RP). I don't recall ever seeing a short barrel RP target before this one either.

The extension target stocks are not numbered, but they are the right variation for the revolver's vintage. To top it all off, this revolver also has a call gold bead front sight. Letter is pending.

This particular gun has the SN of 517950. The finish appears factory but there is a "B" at the bottom of the right side of the frame. The extension target grips are clean just as is the gun. This gun also came with a pretty neat custom S&W presentation case

Here is one you don't see too often - enjoy!

I was of course pleased when I took off the rear sight assembly, and it matched the gun.

Call gold bead front sight

"B" on right side of grip frame

Despite the "B" stamped on the grip frame, there is not a "B" prefix for the serial on the barrel flat. I do believe the nickel finish to be factory. There are no rework markings on the gun.

[IMG]http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/357SandW/32%20reg%20pol%20tgt/IMG_1422_zpsn***d7yu.jpg[/IMG]

The case ended up being super interesting itself. It started out as a basic 70s 4in N frame case. Someone then took the trouble to make a drop in liner just for this exact gun. While I would not have placed the compartments and ammo holder the way that craftsman did, I appreciated the workmanship.

As if the work placed in the liner was not enough, I was pleasantly surprised to see that the lid of the case was given a print of a nautical scene depicting some sail boats, and the print was signed to boot! Who doesn't love S&W accessories which are customized with nautical art

I did a little research online, and deciphered the signature to be a marine artist named "Charles Lundgren"

Apparently Lundgren was a pretty well known marine artist. He made it into the American Society of Marine Artists (ASMA) hall of fame. It was there that I found this bio of him:

Charles Lundgren 1911 - 1988

After growing up on the waters of Long Island Sound, Lundgren studied at the Parsons School in New York followed by overseas studies in several countries prior to WWII. In the 1960s, he brought vision and sustaining help to the newly undertaken South Street Seaport Museum effort and, as such, could be ranked as one of its founders. He retreated from his beloved Sound because he found the water too "distracting", moving to a colonial farmhouse near New Preston, CT, where he ensconced himself in a cellar studio. Several early meetings of the Society were held there in that smoke-filled, windowless room. Lundgren was pivotal in steering the ASMA through the rough waters of its first months and went on to serve as the President for the first two years and as one of the first fellows of the ASMA.

I did some more digging online, and I identified the print to be his work titled: Norwegian Sail Training Ship Christian Radich
He completed this work in 1976.

Below is a black and white photo taken of him working on one of his many pieces. Date is unknown. His works bring pretty decent money online, with some of his original prints bringing $1000 or more at auction.

Here is a family photo with a few of my other pre war I frame S&Ws. In the middle is my Regulation Police in 38 S&W which bears the SN of 58 (yep, you read that right

) and at the top is another scarce S&W 32 target I own, a 1903 (no change) 32 target which lettered shipped in 1904.

Although my first regulation police target is not a blued 38 S&W 6in variation, I am plenty happy with this one!

Questions or comments are always welcome

=====================================================================================
UPDATE 7-30-16

Letter has arrived and the gun lettered perfectly! I have been waiting eagerly for this letter, like any of you would have guessed! Well today, I got the letter back after sending my request 7-17. That's only 13 days folks!

Special thanks to Roy and Don Mundell for their quick work as of late! I think I speak for all of the forum members and SWCA members who have gotten letters from you guys - thanks very much for the hard work and for these expedient letters! A big thumbs up

The gun lettered exactly as is and went to John Meunier Co. of WI. I am very happy this gun lettered, needless to say

I tried to find info on John Meunier Co. of WI. Although I was not able to find a photo of the business, I found out that Meunier was a single shot rifle builder, professional rifle shooter, in addition to being a gun dealer.

Here is one of his custom percussion target rifles. They are apparently prized today.

I was able to find this obituary of him. He died before my revolver shipped - RIP.

=====================================================================================
UPDATE 11-13-16

I went ahead and ordered the SWHF documents for this interesting revolver. There is the original build request, a letter from S&W describing the up-charge for the features, a letter back from Meunier stating that they are aware of the extra charges, and still want the revolver and finally the shipping invoice when the revolver left the factory.

Thanks for the great work SWHF - this time, and always!

6518John · #2 07-17-2016, 09:17 PM

Jim--is it possible the revolver belonged to the artist? And the gun is simply amazing. Looks like it just left the factory.

Hondo44 · #3 07-17-2016, 10:13 PM

Jim,

That's a real screamer.

How about the other stamping locations?

NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamp: ahead of pre war serial #s on the barrel flat (or in shroud), rear face of yoke, on rear face of cyl by itself, behind the extractor star, and by itself on right side grip frame on commercial guns (only on left side grip frame on post war models) indicates an original Blue finish or an original Nickel finish based upon the corresponding letter. The occasional absence (more prevalent after 1930) of either the 'B' or 'N' can also indicate that it left the factory nickeled.

DCWilson · #4 07-17-2016, 11:06 PM

That's a terrific score. There aren't that many Regulation Police Target revolvers in the first place, and until this one came to my attention, all of them were blue. That was actually consistent with a policy decision S&W took to cease production of nickel target revolvers in order to minimize distracting glare during shooting competitions. Also, the adjustable sight RPs were specified with six-inch barrels. Of the nearly four dozen RP Targets I have identified, only two -- this one and a 1927 gun -- have the shorter barrel.

The serial number of your gun is in a block of 517xxx guns in which other RP targets are to be found. There also some target models in the 5189xx to 5190xx range. The earliest shipping dates for these groups are in 1930 and 1931. A couple of stockroom orphans from these number blocks didn't get shipped until 1936 and 1938.

I hate to tell you, but if any .38 RP Targets exist they would not be many and would probably be special orders. I have never seen one. The .38 RP specification called for a four-inch barrel only (not 4.25) and service sights. There are some loose six-inch .38 RP barrels in circulation; I have one, and have toyed with the idea of using it to make a .38 RP target out of a distressed standard revolver. My barrel has a sight base that would permit a choice of blade. It appears that at one time someone in Springfield was at least considering such a small frame target .38, though I have never seen evidence that the model went into production.

I am of course completely envious. The prewar small frame .32 Target hand ejectors are one of the models I have tried to collect. Your gun is a specimen of the hypothetical ".32 Kit Gun" that S&W never put into production, except for the 196 postwar "retro" revolvers that they built from leftover prewar parts.

Göring's S&W · #5 07-18-2016, 12:39 AM

Quote:

is it possible the revolver belonged to the artist? And the gun is simply amazing. Looks like it just left the factory.

Thank you! As for your question, I guess anything is possible BUT I doubt the factory letter could connect the revolver to him since he was born in 1911 and the gun likely shipped out in the early 1930s.

Jim and David - thanks very much for the compliments and insight! I had a sneaking suspicion you both would show up in the thread

Quote:

How about the other stamping locations?

NOTE: 'B' or 'N' stamp: ahead of pre war serial #s on the barrel flat (or in shroud), rear face of yoke, on rear face of cyl by itself, behind the extractor star

Jim, I had no idea the B / N stamps were found to the left of the SN on the yoke or on the cylinder, under the extractor in the PRE war years. I knew the "N" stamp was found on cylinders, underneath the extractor in the POST war years. Just goes to show with S&W, you cannot know it all.

I removed the yoke and cylinder from my gun and sure enough, both have a "B" stamping.

Here are a few other pics of the gun

Now of course, some would say that this revolver likely shipped in blue, due to these "B" markings. However, we all know that S&W would occasionally pull a completed blued revolver from stock, and nickel it, to finish an order. I have one like that in my collection and it too was a special order gun. It has "B" stampings in all of the places that Hondo44 mentions, but it letters as a nickel gun.

IMO, here is the likely scenario for my nickel RP target: an order was placed for a nickel 4.25 32 RP target. S&W then pulled a BLUE 6in RP 32 target model from stock to fill the order. RP targets were obviously not great sellers, so pulling a blued one from stock makes sense. This of course explains the "B" stampings that are on the gun. I believe the frame was originally a 6in target model because the barrel flat is curiously without the "B" prefix, yet the yoke and cylinder both have the "B". Since the order was for a nickel gun, the new barrel would not receive a "B" stamping on the flat. Its possible, alternatively, that a blued 4.25 in 32 RP target was pulled from stock, and nickeled, to the fill the order, but in that case, one would expect a "B" prefix to be on the barrel flat.

Aside from my theory, I see no signs of a refinish and the gun is finished just as a nickel target model should be from that era. I suppose I will have to just cross my fingers as I wait for the letter

Quote:

There aren't that many Regulation Police Target revolvers in the first place, and until this one came to my attention, all of them were blue. That was actually consistent with a policy decision S&W took to cease production of nickel target revolvers in order to minimize distracting glare during shooting competitions. Also, the adjustable sight RPs were specified with six-inch barrels. Of the nearly four dozen RP Targets I have identified, only two -- this one and a 1927 gun -- have the shorter barrel.

I updated my original post because the "other" nickel RP target I *thought* I saw turned out to be a nickel 1903 32 target (I double checked the thread). I appreciate the info regarding the RP target variations you have in your database. Based on the 32 RP targets you have seen, and based on the specific features of my gun, it appears that it is thus far the only known 4.25 in nickel 32 RP target, which is of course very interesting. I knew it was special when I bought it, but I didn't think it was this unique!

Quote:

The serial number of your gun is in a block of 517xxx guns in which other RP targets are to be found. There also some target models in the 5189xx to 5190xx range. The earliest shipping dates for these groups are in 1930 and 1931. A couple of stockroom orphans from these number blocks didn't get shipped until 1936 and 1938.

Thanks again for this info. I will of course post the letter when I get it.

Quote:

I hate to tell you, but if any .38 RP Targets exist they would not be many and would probably be special orders. I have never seen one. The .38 RP specification called for a four-inch barrel only (not 4.25) and service sights.

I didn't know they were quite that rare, but I suppose that will just make finding one (if I ever do) that much more special

Hondo44 · #6 07-18-2016, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

Jim and David - thanks very much for the compliments and insight! I had a sneaking suspicion you both would show up in the thread

Jim, I had no idea the B / N stamps were found to the left of the SN on the yoke or on the cylinder, under the extractor in the PRE war years. I knew the "N" stamp was found on cylinders, underneath the extractor in the POST war years. Just goes to show with S&W, you cannot know it all.

I removed the yoke and cylinder from my gun and sure enough, both have a "B" stamping.

Now of course, some would say that this revolver likely shipped in blue, due to these "B" markings. However, we all know that S&W would occasionally pull a completed blued revolver from stock, and nickel it, to finish an order. I have one like that in my collection and it too was a special order gun. It has "B" stampings in all of the places that Hondo44 mentions, but it letters as a nickel gun.

IMO, here is the likely scenario for my nickel RP target: an order was placed for a nickel 4.25 32 RP target. S&W then pulled a BLUE 6in RP 32 target model from stock to fill the order. RP targets were obviously not great sellers, so pulling a blued one from stock makes sense. This of course explains the "B" stampings that are on the gun. I believe the frame was originally a 6in target model because the barrel flat is curiously without the "B" prefix, yet the yoke and cylinder both have the "B". Since the order was for a nickel gun, the new barrel would not receive a "B" stamping on the flat. Its possible, alternatively, that a blued 4.25 in 32 RP target was pulled from stock, and nickeled, to the fill the order, but in that case, one would expect a "B" prefix to be on the barrel flat.

Aside from my theory, I see no signs of a refinish and the gun is finished just as a nickel target model should be from that era. I suppose I will have to just cross my fingers as I wait for the letter

Jim,
I too, am very confident that it is originally Nickel and will letter as such. I also agree that your theory is absolutely correct about how it came to be!

It is truly unique!

Frank46 · #7 07-18-2016, 02:00 AM

Beautiful revolver and story. Thanks for posting. Frank

Muley Gil · #8 07-18-2016, 05:58 AM

I have a 3 1/4" nickel .32 HE, # 512621. It shipped in April 1938.

6518John · #9 07-18-2016, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

Thank you! As for your question, I guess anything is possible BUT I doubt the factory letter could connect the revolver to him since he was born in 1911 and the gun likely shipped out in the early 1930s.

I thought that maybe since the gun is so unique it might have provenance from the seller above and beyond what one could obtain in a factory letter. Again amazing package.

DCWilson · #10 07-18-2016, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

IMO, here is the likely scenario for my nickel RP target: an order was placed for a nickel 4.25 32 RP target. S&W then pulled a BLUE 6in RP 32 target model from stock to fill the order.

Completely agree. A barrel substitution and refinish of an existing inventory item is the simplest explanation of the observed markings.

In addition to the basic letter, I encourage you to see if the Historical Association has any correspondence on the gun. I think they might.

Hondo44 · #11 07-18-2016, 08:01 PM

Jim,

I agree with David. It's very possible the Hist Assoc will have an original order from the buyer or the buyer's dealer stipulating the gun's features as it is now. It has no indication of being returned to the factory so there won't be any rework correspondence.

Göring's S&W · #12 07-30-2016, 11:41 PM

I got the letter!!! See addendum to post #1.

Quote:

In addition to the basic letter, I encourage you to see if the Historical Association has any correspondence on the gun. I think they might.

Quote:

I agree with David. It's very possible the Hist Assoc will have an original order from the buyer or the buyer's dealer stipulating the gun's features as it is now.

Jim & David - I already asked, and they had nothing BUT that was prior to reception of the letter. I will have to ask again, now that I have the letter, just to make sure.

handejector · #13 07-31-2016, 07:48 PM

I meant to pop in earlier, but I've been busy.

That outfit is cuter'n a 2 week old litter of 10 pups at feeding time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

Now of course, some would say that this revolver likely shipped in blue, due to these "B" markings. However, we all know that S&W would occasionally pull a completed blued revolver from stock, and nickel it, to finish an order. I have one like that in my collection and it too was a special order gun. It has "B" stampings in all of the places that Hondo44 mentions, but it letters as a nickel gun.

IMO, here is the likely scenario for my nickel RP target: an order was placed for a nickel 4.25 32 RP target. S&W then pulled a BLUE 6in RP 32 target model from stock to fill the order. RP targets were obviously not great sellers, so pulling a blued one from stock makes sense. This of course explains the "B" stampings that are on the gun. I believe the frame was originally a 6in target model because the barrel flat is curiously without the "B" prefix, yet the yoke and cylinder both have the "B". Since the order was for a nickel gun, the new barrel would not receive a "B" stamping on the flat. Its possible, alternatively, that a blued 4.25 in 32 RP target was pulled from stock, and nickeled, to the fill the order, but in that case, one would expect a "B" prefix to be on the barrel flat.

You're probably right.

But one other possibility exists-
perhaps the frame and cylinder were already stamped with the B, but were still just parts on hand. If they were just parts on hand, they may or may not have already been polished.

Ever wondered why the parts were marked for blue or nickel?
I mean, like, really- the guys in the plating department knew they were supposed to plate the parts brought to them, and the guys in the bluing department knew they were supposed to blue the parts brought to them.

The markings were for the polishers. The nickel parts received a higher polish than the blue parts.

rct269 · #14 08-02-2016, 12:01 PM

Now THAT----from start to finish, makes this forum what it is----a winner!!

Ralph Tremaine

Göring's S&W · #15 11-13-2016, 06:41 PM

First post updated! I got the SWHF documents

I at first asked the SWHF to see if there were documents on the revolver but I originally only had a ship date from Roy (month and year), and the serial number, but there were no records for that info. The SWHF can however search for records by ship date OR by serial number, and often times the factory letter is needed so that the SWHF can thoroughly search the databases. With the specific ship date, and the other info provided by the factory letter, the SWHF was able to find documents for my revolver. Score!

If you have not already, I strongly encourage joining of the SWHF! Their efforts are much appreciated and the SWHF has added a lot to the S&W collecting world! Thank you SWHF!