Does this alteration change the value?

[policerevolvercollector]

I'm in the process of getting a police issued .38/44 Heavy Duty from 1938. According to the factory letter, it started out with a 5" bbl. The department sent it back to S&W a few months later and had a 4" bbl. installed. Since it is a factory alteration that happened when the gun was practically new, does that change the value?

I'm posing the question generally not necessarily specifically to this gun.

Best,
Charles

[Muley Gil]

If you have documentation that the PD did this, I don't think it affects the value that much.

[Absalom]

Since it is a factory modification, ordered by the department and documented in the letter, it would increase the collector value to me considerably, meaning I'd be willing to put down quite a bit more cash for this one than an unmodified one.

However, I buy for my collection and not the resale value, and the market is very rigid and frequently doesn't look kindly upon post-original modifications, so others with more experience in mainstream collectibility might have a different perspective.

[policerevolvercollector]

It letters to my hometown and the city manager is mentioned by name. I actually know his family!!

[410bore]

I think it makes it much more interesting. 4" pre war heavy duty's aren't common


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[Art Doc]

I was told that S&W cutting the 6" barrel on my 1936 Registered Magnum to 4" in 1952 reduced the value by 75%.

[bamabiker]

Originally Posted by SaxonPig

I was told that S&W cutting the 6" barrel on my 1936 Registered Magnum to 4" in 1952 reduced the value by 75%.

How long ago?

[k22fan]

Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector

It letters to my hometown and the city manager is mentioned by name. I actually know his family!!

You want it for yourself, not to resell. I figure my got to have 'em priced purchases average out with the good deals and don't worry about my heirs' resale value.

[JSR III]

How long ago?

SP states in his post that it was done in 1952. I think that there is a huge difference in a 1935 gun modified (most likely not by the original owner) some 17 years later and a police order being sent back within the first few months after purchase for the modification. Especially since it was factory work and a law enforcement gun. The law enforcement connection alone can sometimes be enough to counteract a modification in collector value. It would be interesting to know if this was a one gun modification or if a group was bought and then returned. Being part of a group would to me enhance the value as opposed to a one gun shipment.

Either way, I would not deduct any points for the barrel change.

[bamabiker]

I was asking how long ago someone told him it reduced the value by 75%.
As popular as RMs have become that figure surprises me if it was given recently.

Sorry, I should have been clear on my question.

[JSR III]

Sorry, I should have been clear on my question

No problem. But does illustrate why sometimes both the spoken and written word can be misinterpreted. The speaker or writer has a clear thought in their mind and presents it. Unfortunately that is not always how the receiver receives it.

This fact is especially true between men and women. You married guys will know what I mean.

[H Richard]

With the paper work, and police connection and factory work, I don't feel it reduces the balance substantially. Maybe 10& - 15%.

[Göring's S&W]

As for the OP's question, I would say that this particular modification does not hurt the value. Its value however will not be increased in the same way a factory 4in gun's value is increased compared its more common 5in brethren. Its an interesting modification. Add in that it was modified into one of the scarcest HD variants: there were only approx. 100 pre war 4in HDs manufactured. I am fortunate enough to own one of these 100 (approx.)

As for the Pig of Saxony, and his 10,000th complaint regarding what was said about his beloved RM: sometimes there is bad info posted here, and on any forum. Remember, an opinion is only as good as its source! The "75% reduction" was likely wrong / exaggerated, but at the same time, a decrease in value due to that modification is not really debatable. So it comes down to this: is it a 35% reduction, 20%, 50%? Regardless, its not an egregious enough error to bring it up frequently, for years on end. Also, as others have said, its a very different scenario than what the OP is referencing, and thus adds nothing of any substance to the thread.

SP - we get it, we actually do, but its sincerely time to bury the hatchet

Seriously, the remark you reference was from 2010...

Question for the RM guys.

[gmborkovic]

Hello Jim, my wife and I have no communication problem. She says something, and I say yes dear. Works for me. Best

[BUFF]

Saxon Pig's gun was one of several sold to the Utah Highway Patrol to replace their 6-1/2 inch Second Model .44 Specials. When the Patrol decided to go with shorter barrels, all the RM's they had went back to the factory to be bobbed. Whether it happened all at the same time or was spread out over several months or years, I don't know.

The UHP standardized on the 3-1/2 inch .357 through the Model 27 and carried them until they went to the HK P-7M-8 in the 1980's. I've never seen another UHP RM for sale, and I'm here in Utah. I've seen several of their Second Models for sale and have one myself, even though they were bought and issued in smaller numbers because the Patrol was so small when the .44 was issued and then grew steadily.

Our state legislature is really cheap when dealing with public safety. I had three UHP cadets in my academy class and their .357's were old, worn and in generally poor shape. Saxon Pig's RM looks better than some of the much newer UHP .357 Magnums I have seen.

Just from scarcity in a highly desirable model, I can't see his being worth 75% less than an identical uncut gun from the same era with the same wear. But that's just me.

[Göring's S&W]

Hello Jim, my wife and I have no communication problem. She says something, and I say yes dear. Works for me. Best

Mike, point taken

[Art Doc]

S&W of Göring- Sorry if I am boring you but I don't think it has been mentioned 10,000 times. Maybe 3 or 4 over a six year period. For future reference perhaps you could make a list of acceptable subjects I can discuss?

To clarify, the UHP RMs were shipped as 6" models and between 1948 and 1952 they were returned to S&W in batches for refinish and barrel cutting to 4". This work, according to the folks on this forum who responded to my question, dramatically reduced the value on the revolver. Some estimates, and this was six years ago apparently, were as low as $1,300 which struck me as a very low value for an RM.

I'm sorry I brought it up. Rest assured that I won't do it again.

[Inusuit]

One reaps what one sows.

[1blindref]

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

As for the OP's question, I would say that this particular modification does not hurt the value. Its value however will not be increased in the same way a factory 4in gun's value is increased compared its more common 5in brethren. Its an interesting modification. Add in that it was modified into one of the scarcest HD variants: there were only approx. 100 pre war 4in HDs manufactured. I am fortunate enough to own one of these 100 (approx.) ........

I agree with this assessment.

I'd say it doesn't hurt the value, but it also doesn't increase the value to what a factory shipped 4" pre war HD would be worth.

I'd value it somewhere in between what a factory shipped 5" and a factory shipped 4" gun would be worth.

and thanks to Bill Patteson, I'm also one of the few lucky ones to have a factory 4" PW HD

[BUFF]

And, pray tell, just how many proper subjects have never been discussed on this site? We get new members all of the time who ask the same questions over and over and they get the same replies from the older members and nobody jumps down their throats.

Values of S&W's have changed a lot in the passed 6 or 7 years. Sounding out what a gun might be worth a good bit later is far from repeticious.

Saxon Pig has a somewhat dry wit often touched with a hint of sarcasm. Some of you find it annoying. Others of us find it humorous.

[Absalom]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that, unlike pork bellies or gold coins, the "value" of relatively uncommon guns isn't really a thing that you can objectively determine on a day-to-day basis. So be sceptical of folks who pontificate about whether your gun "is worth more or less" for some reason or other. I always limit my comments to what I would or wouldn't pay and any comparative prices I may have observed recently, actually being paid.

If you want a good idea of how the market currently values your gun, and you don't mind really ticking off some people, put the gun on Gunbroker as a 14-day auction starting at 1 cent, set a million bucks as the reserve price, and see how high it goes. People will hate your guts, but you will have the best obtainable "market value" for your gun. In the worst case, you'll end up a millionaire .

Actually, I'm not really advocating that. But my point is that on guns with unique histories, like Charles' and SP's, conventional wisdom goes out the window. They're worth what someone is willing to pay for them.

[Göring's S&W]

Sorry that my point has been lost on so many of you.

[JSR III]

Just remember to get out and vote in November. If things go badly, you guns won't be worth spit and value will be a moot discussion.

I'm already collecting tea bags to dump in Boston harbor just it case.

[les.b]

Charles:

I think they are saying you did OK. I love this forum.

Best Regards, Les

[policerevolvercollector]

Originally Posted by les.b

Charles:

I think they are saying you did OK. I love this forum.

Best Regards, Les

Good!

I'd lost track for a minute there......

Best,
Charles

P.S.,

WORST case scenario.... I find some nice stags or Keith Brown stocks for it & I finally have my BBQ gun!!!!

[410bore]

It's time for pics


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[Art Doc]

"One reaps what one sows."

I...HAVE...no idea...what you mean by that. (Doing my impersonation of William Shatner.)

To the OP: As I have stated many times I am not an expert on collecting S&Ws or on collectible S&Ws. But to me collecting service revolvers means having examples with extra engravings, special features, wear patterns, modifications, all of which are a part of the history of the weapons. These things add to their character and help tell their story. Pristine guns that have set in drawers and safes all their lives don't really have a story to tell. Their perfect condition makes them mute. The scars and modifications on service weapons speak volumes. That's what makes them interesting. If all one cares about is monetary value then collecting duty weapons isn't the right path.

That HD's story includes a trip back to S&W for a barrel swap. Great story. Isn't that what you want in a service weapon?

[H Richard]

SP, one way to find out just what your Reg Magnum is worth it to list it for sale on Gunbroker fully disclosing the alterations, and with lots of pictures, then placing an exorbitantly high "reserve" on it (so it wouldn't sell). See just how high the bidding goes, and that should be your fair market price.

[Lee's Landing Billy]

Originally Posted by SaxonPig

I was told that S&W cutting the 6" barrel on my 1936 Registered Magnum to 4" in 1952 reduced the value by 75%.

Mr.Pig, if you really believe the 75% devaluation [you obviously give it some credit, it's still on your mind after all this time], would you entertain an offer of 25% of today's valuation to get this terrible example out of your sight? If you would, feel free to contact me post haste.

[Jackcpat]

Congrats on the 1938 HD. An add to your collection to be proud of.

[Göring's S&W]

So be sceptical of folks who pontificate about whether your gun "is worth more or less" for some reason or other. I always limit my comments to what I would or wouldn't pay and any comparative prices I may have observed recently, actually being paid.

Looks as though you apparently lack either the knowledge or the experience to see the validity in what I said. A cut down gun is worth less than an uncut gun, period (when all else is the same). The thing you are missing is that rare and original guns are hard to place a value on, but when a gun is altered, rarity alone does not always make up for the alteration. Condition-rarity-demand are the cardinal traits that drive prices, not condition-condition-condition as some would say, and not rarity alone either.

Have you yourself paid the price of an uncut RM for a cut example? Tell us about your RM, and why you bought it...

Values of S&W's have changed a lot in the passed 6 or 7 years. Sounding out what a gun might be worth a good bit later is far from repeticious.

Saxon Pig has a somewhat dry wit often touched with a hint of sarcasm. Some of you find it annoying. Others of us find it humorous.

Both of your points are obvious. My issue is that SP repeatedly has brought up something out of context because apparently he felt insulted over *1* person devaluing his gun. He is not evaluating his gun, its value, adding to the discussion, or anything, he is whining about something he should let go of.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by Göring's S&W

Looks as though you apparently lack either the knowledge or the experience to see the validity in what I said. A cut down gun is worth less than an uncut gun, period (when all else is the same). The thing you are missing is that rare and original guns are hard to place a value on, but when a gun is altered, rarity alone does not always make up for the alteration. Condition-rarity-demand are the cardinal traits that drive prices, not condition-condition-condition as some would say, and not rarity alone either.

Have you yourself paid the price of an uncut RM for a cut example? Tell us about your RM, and why you bought it...

.....

Wow, that's a doozy.

1. You sort of insult me.

2. Nothing you say actually relates to my quote you post.

3. Nothing you say is anything I'd disagree with or that would contradict what I said.

Didn't have your second cup of coffee yet?

[Göring's S&W]

Well you obviously meant that I pontificated about the value reduction. You seem to think that rarity and provenance are the only things that drive a price. Why would I need coffee to discuss firearms? All I need is my memory and my logic.

I see you aren't offering up an instance of you buying a cut down RM, or telling us about your RM. I wonder why that is?

[Absalom]

And I'm wondering why you seem so determined to pick a fight. I wasn't even aware I was addressing you specifically.

I think my point that a documented factory modification makes value determinations based on the market very difficult is well-taken. I think your counter-point that, and I quote, "a cut down gun is worth less than an uncut gun, period (when all else is the same)" is also perfectly correct. However, the whole issue here is that all else is not the same, so it may not necessarily work that way. That's all. I'm done here.

[Sgt 127]

Originally Posted by BUFF

The UHP standardized on the 3-1/2 inch .357 through the Model 27 and carried them until they went to the HK P-7M-8 in the 1980's. I've never seen another UHP RM for sale, and I'm here in Utah. I've seen several of their Second Models for sale and have one myself, even though they were bought and issued in smaller numbers because the Patrol was so small when the .44 was issued and then grew steadily.
.

It's not for sale, but here's another cut UHP RM.

[BigBill]

I don't purchase any guns that have mods, barrels changed or cut or been vented on the muzzles. I perfer them all orginal. I'm not a collector.

[SAFireman]

To the OP:

My father and I collect LEO guns. Between us, we probably have more guns that have some mod than not.

I think that the history of the gun plays an important part in the value. Pristine, untouched guns are great, but there is value in experience isn't there?

Enjoy your 4" HD and endeavor to learn as much about that dept, their officers, and history as you can.

PS- also take it out and shoot it! Enjoy it and the connection with the past.

[policerevolvercollector]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

To the OP:

My father and I collect LEO guns. Between us, we probably have more guns that have some mod than not.

I think that the history of the gun plays an important part in the value. Pristine, untouched guns are great, but there is value in experience isn't there?

Enjoy your 4" HD and endeavor to learn as much about that dept, their officers, and history as you can.

PS- also take it out and shoot it! Enjoy it and the connection with the past.

My original question was a very general one. Does the fact that the modification was factory affect the value of any gun vs. non factory work?

I have over 150 agency issued wheelguns as of this writing and whole heartedly prefer the one with carry wear showing that they were really "service" revolvers. Contrary to almost everyone else's collecting standards, I shy away from pristine guns. An unissued gun doesn't fit my collection.

This .38/44 was shipped to my hometown in 1938 w/ a 5" bbl. and was subsequently modified at the factory to a 4" tube.

I worked at the Sheriff's Office there early in my career and frequently worked side by side with the PD officers. This gun went to the city via the city manager whose name is listed in the history letter. So,this will hold a special place for me regardless of barrel length or any other factor.

Just a bit of trivia, the city manager's sister was the first Georgia author to win the Pulitzer Prize. She won for fiction in 1934.

Pics will be added as soon as it gets here from the seller in Indiana.

Best,
Charles

[les.b]

Well, hurry up, Charlles!! The anticipation is more than we can take!!!

Seriously, I am pleased that you found this one, and wish you the...

Best Regards, Les

[Chuck24]

Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector

My original question was a very general one. Does the fact that the modification was factory affect the value of any gun vs. non factory work?

I have over 150 agency issued wheelguns as of this writing and whole heartedly prefer the one with carry wear showing that they were really "service" revolvers. Contrary to almost everyone else's collecting standards, I shy away from pristine guns. An unissued gun doesn't fit my collection.

This .38/44 was shipped to my hometown in 1938 w/ a 5" bbl. and was subsequently modified at the factory to a 4" tube.

I worked at the Sheriff's Office there early in my career and frequently worked side by side with the PD officers. This gun went to the city via the city manager whose name is listed in the history letter. So,this will hold a special place for me regardless of barrel length or any other factor.

Just a bit of trivia, the city manager's sister was the first Georgia author to win the Pulitzer Prize. She won for fiction in 1934.

Pics will be added as soon as it gets here from the seller in Indiana.

Best,
Charles

Caroline Miller?

[policerevolvercollector]

Caroline Pafford Miller. That's correct.

[BUFF]

"It's not for sale, but here's another cut UHP RM."

Very nice!

[Art Doc]

SGT127's example is the only other one I have seen. Someone once mentioned knowing of another one in a collection but I never got any details. There were only 50 of them so understandable that so few have surfaced. How many are in sock drawers owned by the grandkids of the officers? I am still curious as to why Roy Jinks doesn't count them among the number of factory inscribed RMs as they were indeed factory inscribed. Maybe he doesn't count agency inscriptions?

On the topic of police issue HDs. I bought this at a show in Denver in the late 1990s. Serial is S154256 but it didn't ship until 1960. I suspect these were slow movers after the Combat Magnum came out. Went to a police supply dealer in Grand Prairie, Texas. I could see a young officer on a budget getting a discount on this to move it out of inventory. It has been carried a lot and I have no doubt it served him well.

[Muss Muggins]

To answer the OP's question, I'm not a fan at all of modified firearms, so I usually just don't consider them, even if offered at a bargain basement price. In that sense, it impacts the value for me. If you want a different configuration, buy a different pistol. Now, would I buy a Registered Magnum with a cut barrel, if it was cut by the factory and the barrel was of a length that the factory sold for other similar pistols? Absolutely, if I could afford it . . .

[old bear]

Hot Damn Guy’s, what could have been an interesting thread as quickly turned into a battle of egos, I.e. pissing contest.

S.P. has a burr under his saddle about a 6-year-old, perceived insult. Is this silly, yes, but I’ve got one or two myself. I wish he’d let it go, yet until I clean up my act, I can’t point fingers.

Now to determine the price of anything is EASY, all that has to happen is determine the least amount of money the seller will accept and the highest price a buyer, not shopper, will pay for the item.
Come on lets try and get back on track, OK!!

Fred

[Göring's S&W]

Old bear - your post gave me my first laugh of the day Good points, and well stated sir!

[Sgt 127]

Just for fun, I bought that UHP RM at the old Jackson Arms across the street from SMU in University Park (Dallas) for $350. I could have bought a brand new model 27 (with no refinish and no cut barrel) for about the same price.

I guess they saw me coming....

....back in 1978.

[Art Doc]

"S.P. has a burr under his saddle about a 6-year-old, perceived insult."

No I don't. Question was asked about the value of a police issue, pre-war S&W revolver with a modified barrel. I happen to own a police issue, pre-war S&W revolver with a modified barrel and I offered my experience. For some reason some people have the idea I'm harping. Again, no I am not. I mentioned it in response to the question asked by the OP. Plain truth is I don't give a good damn what others think about my gun, me, or anything else for that matter. Some people want to tell me what I feel. They have no idea what I feel. Some people want to tell me what I think. They don't have a clue as to what I think. I wish some people would just mind their own business and save their two-bit psychoanalysis for somebody who is interested.

That would not be me.

So if everyone is done talking about me, I'd like to move on.

[Göring's S&W]

[1Aspenhill]

Well, I'll throw my 2 cents in on this. If someone sent his heavy duty back to the factory and had them put adjustable rear sights and target front sight on their 5" barrel. Would this make the gun a McGivern model? Would it have the same value of a shipped McGivern model? I say not. As for the heavy duty at hand, I do not have the info on what was put in the letter request or how the gun is marked, but I have asked the historian many times on what the factory did to a specific gun based on markings and always asked me the date it was sent back to the factory. Needless to say I never got an answer but in the letter he would comment that the marked part must have been changed at the factory. So as they say, value is based on what one will pay for it.