My Baby

[Tom S.]

At least that's what I think it is - a Baby Chief? Input of any kind is appreciated! All numbers match, including the grips and the barrel is as clean as the cylinders show in the pictures. No model number on the frame, the fact that it's a 5 screw and the rounded trigger guard make me belief it's a Baby Chief. So-so double action, excellent single. What do you think?

[two-bit cowboy]

Not a baby j. It's an I-frame in .38 S&W, not .38 S&W Special. The short cylinder is a dead giveaway, not to mention the caliber on the barrel. Still really cool. It's called a Terrier.

[Jaymo]

Very nice Terrier. I've been looking for one for a good while.
You can go to buffalobore.com to find self defense ammo for it.
The shorter cylinder/frame and resulting weight loss would make it a sweet carry gun. Though, I'd be hesitant to carry it for fear of actually having to use it. The thought of it sitting in a police evidence locker until everything is sorted would depress me.

I have an improved I frame in .32 Long. I think mine is a model of 1953.
DA is definitely so-so, especially compared to my 586.

I believe a couple of people on here have reamed their Terrier chambers to take .38 Special wadcutter ammo.

[Tom S.]

Thanks for the info guys! Maybe I'll name it my Baby Terrier. No, not really, I don't name my guns.

The cylinder is 1.25 in length. Given the serial number, I'm guessing it's a later model J frame instead of the I frame. Maybe a manufacturing date around 54?

[Engine49guy]

Nice Terrier, have one close in serial but Mine is a 4 screw (no trigger guard screw) where yours appears to be a 5 screw :
Pre Model 32 .38 S&W "Terrier" Bright blue, New I frame 4 screw, Serial 77062 shipped November 1955 (right)
Pre Model 32 .38 S&W "Terrier" Satin blue, I frame 6 screw, Serial 58078 Shipped Dec 1950 (left)



Im not an expert but looks like your frame is closer to the one on the left but with a coil mainspring instead of a leaf main spring so would fit between these two in its evolution.

[DWalt]

I list 744xx as shipping in 6/1954. Safe to say yours probably shipped sometime in 1954. I'd rather have your Terrier than a Baby Chief. I have a love affair with anything chambered in .38 S&W.

[Tom S.]

Engine 49guy, nice set of Terriers! Second picture below shows a "J" stamped on the frame, so I'm assuming it's one of the early J frame models.

More pictures:

[two-bit cowboy]

Hi Tom,

Everything I know about I-frames and Terriers I learned from Hondo44. I often forget what his commentary offers so I have to go back for a refresher frequently.

Your Terrier might just be the highest numbered one he has documented. Take a look at his section "2." and see what you think.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=103

Cheers,

Bob

[Tom S.]

Thanks for the link Bob. I'm now 99% sure what I have is a J frame. Take a look at how far the barrel protrudes into the frame as opposed to your I frames. The 4th edition of the Standard Catalog of S&W states on page 175 that the postwar Terrier, Pre-Model 32 started with the I frame, then later went to the improved I frame and later yet, the J frame, but it doesn't give any specific dates for these changes. The conundrum is that Eagle49guy's I frame with a serial number more than 3,000 units later than mine dates November 55. Although S&W has been known to mix and match parts, I don't know if I believe they would have produced I frames that much later after introducing J frames.

Could it be that someone took later model J frame .38 Special and had it converted to the shorter .38 S&W? I don't know. This one might require a letter to determine.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Given the serial number, I'm guessing it's a later model J frame instead of the I frame. Maybe a manufacturing date around 54?

I'm now 99% sure what I have is a J frame.

Well, I guess the 1% wins out then. There is no way your Terrier is built on the J frame. It is much too early for that. As you say, the serial number points to c. 1954. It has 5 screws, also pointing to the early 1950s. It does not yet have a model number - those came along in 1958. The Terrier didn't move to the J frame until 1961 and it was then given the model designation Model 32-1.

The J in the yoke area is a fitter's mark and has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the frame size.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

I don't know if I believe they would have produced I frames that much later after introducing J frames.

They did. For the longest time, only the Chiefs Special was produced on the J frame. Most of the other I frame models weren't converted to the J frame until the early 1960s. Examples: Models 34 & 35 in 1960; Models 30, 31 and 32 in 1961.

[two-bit cowboy]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Well, I guess the 1% wins out then. There is no way your Terrier is built on the J frame.

Fixed it for you, JP@AK.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Thanks for the link Bob. I'm now 99% sure what I have is a J frame. Take a look at how far the barrel protrudes into the frame as opposed to your I frames. The 4th edition of the Standard Catalog of S&W states on page 175 that the postwar Terrier, Pre-Model 32 started with the I frame, then later went to the improved I frame and later yet, the J frame, but it doesn't give any specific dates for these changes. The conundrum is that Eagle49guy's I frame with a serial number more than 3,000 units later than mine dates November 55. Although S&W has been known to mix and match parts, I don't know if I believe they would have produced I frames that much later after introducing J frames.

Could it be that someone took later model J frame .38 Special and had it converted to the shorter .38 S&W? I don't know. This one might require a letter to determine.

Hi Tom,

All the members above are correct.

You have a very nice .38/32 Terrier Improved I frame - late edition, with ramp front sight and ribbed barrel instead of the 1/2 round sight. It's all original since you state the serial #s all match (in all 6 locations I presume you mean). Therefore the cyl hasn't been changed.

Because if a 38 S&W was installed in a J frame, it would be about 5/16" short of reaching the barrel.

S&W HE frame sizes were never marked on their guns. As JP@AK posted,
the J is an employee identification stamp.

In my database, #70XXX is the Highest known Imp I frame, with rd sight shipped 4/53.

#70131 is the Lowest known Improved I frame with ramp site and ribbed barrel shipped July of 1953.

I think DWalt nailed yours as shipping in 1954. Likely ~ in the 2nd quarter.

Since you have the new 4th edition of the SCSW, please turn to a new 3 page section starting on page 144, which adds the details/clarifications not included in the older text that follows and on page 175. On page 146 the new article provides the date change of the I frame .38 S&W Terrier to the J frame Terrier.

For comparison, here's Baby J Chiefs Special late editions with rib and ramp sight to compare to your Terrier. Notice the cyl virtually fills the cyl window and the space of the frame bottom in front of the trigger guard is 1/8" longer than yours Improved I frame Terrier and Engine49guy's earlier Transitional Terrier:



I hope you shoot and enjoy it,

[Tom S.]

Jim & Jack, thanks for setting me straight and for the information! I've only recently started to delve into earlier model S&W's and as you can no doubt tell, am pretty clueless.

[Göring's S&W]

As others have basically said, one of the easiest ways to differentiate I and J frame is the cylinder window. Remember that the J frame was devised to handle the 38 special, whereas the I frame was originally made for 32 long, which results in different dimensions, needless to say.

Cool Terrier

[Tom S.]

Another question, this one about screws. I've heard and seen the trigger guard screw included in screw counts. My gun, including that screw has 5 screws, with 4 of them in the side plate. The Standard Catalog pages 144 - 146 states the Models of 1953 had a 'new' I frame that had 4 and later 3 screws. Since my gun seems to have been built in early /mid 1954 but has 5 screws, was it a carry over frame some janitor found lying behind a desk somewhere?

And again, thanks for all the replies, I'm really learning here!

[Tom S.]

Photos of the frame with the stocks removed:

[Tom S.]

And stocks - can't forget them too:






The more I play with this gun the more I like it!

[Göring's S&W]

I think when we discuss the age of this gun juxtaposed to the serial number, we are discussing an estimated ship date, and not the actual build date. Therein lies the likely answer, the gun was likely made a good while before it actually shipped. I cannot think 38 Terriers sold as well as many of other models, hence it sitting around for a while. Of course, S&W rarely if ever threw away any good serviceable parts, which accounts for many interesting variations today.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Another question, this one about screws. I've heard and seen the trigger guard screw included in screw counts. My gun, including that screw has 5 screws, with 4 of them in the side plate. The Standard Catalog pages 144 - 146 states the Models of 1953 had a 'new' I frame that had 4 and later 3 screws. Since my gun seems to have been built in early /mid 1954 but has 5 screws, was it a carry over frame some janitor found lying behind a desk somewhere?

And again, thanks for all the replies, I'm really learning here!

Yes the trigger guard screw is always counted in the screw count. It's the 5th screw in the count on I and J frames, but the 4th screw on K and N frames because of the order in which they were eliminated.

I don't think your gun was built in early/mid 1954, we think it was shipped then. It may have sat in inventory for a year or two before being shipped, or it could have shipped a year earlier, only a letter will verify the true ship date. There just wasn't any order to S&W's assembly and shipping sequence. It was haphazard at best because it made no difference to production and product sales, their primary goals.

And as Jim posted above, at that time, .38 Terriers were not fast movers; the new J frame .38 Spl Chiefs Specials having encroached heavily on their market.

I have no doubt that at some point, the last of the Improved I frames like yours could have been in the assembly process right along side the first of the newer Model of 1953 New I Frames.

Also, very few Models of 1953 actually shipped that year. Another phenomenon was that dealers sometimes refused old models when new models were available, such as the Model of 1953 in this case.