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What affect does patina instead of blueing have on value?

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Niner19

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I am looking at buying an early Hand Ejector Model 1899 in the 15K serial number range. There is no bluing. The gun has an even nice brown patina instead. No pitting or evidence of oxidation on the gun at all. It is mechanically sound and the grips are very good.

My question is where would such a gun fall in the condition scale?

Is a really nice brown patina a detractor to value? If so, at what % roughly would you take off from the value? 10% 20% etc. etc. ??

thanks for the input.
 
A nice even patina is not an original finish and will effect the value accordingly.

On the other hand, it's not a bad finish on an older, collectible firearms and it's worth more with it than if you try to remove it.
 
Some collectors call these "Roach Guns". As there is no original finish it is 0%. Nonetheless, as an otherwise original and completely functional 1899, it does have historic significance, and due to that, plus its scarcity, there should be no problem for a seller in finding a buyer for it, probably in the $300 range.
 
There is a very fine line between "patina" and good old-fashioned rust, since patina on a once-blued gun is nothing but decayed finish on its way to corrosion. So such guns bear very close inspection of all the nooks and crannies, under the grip panels etc. to ensure that in those not so obvious spots they have not patina-ed too far.

Besides that, as DWalt indicated, the historical and rarity value play a role. A 1950s M&P neglected to the point of only patina would have little more than scrap metal appeal, but an early Model 1899 retains some attraction.
 
Thank your for the answers. I think I am close enough to the price range mentioned to go for it. I will post pics when I actually have it.

Thanks again.
 
"Patina" is just a salesman's term borrowed from semi-precious metal descriptions like bronze and copper. It really doesn't apply to guns although used for guns with minor rusted surfaces for many years, as a nicer sounding description, i.e., 'marketing hype'.

As said above, a gun with 'patina' has 0% original finish. The same gun with all original finish worn off to bright metal is also a 0% finish, but has more desirability and value than a patined gun.
 
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This is truly an age old question. I guess we will have the answer when "all" guns made before 1910 have "no" original finish left. The day will come. Maybe in 100 years. Maybe it will take 500 years. At that time we will have new grading standards for really antique guns. During my life standards have been relaxed for currency, comic books, and coins. I made some good money some years ago buying certain coins priced under the old standards right before the new ones were released. The VG coins I purchased magically became VF coins. Paper items suffer or benefit the most first for obvious reasons. The exterior finish on a gun is destined to the same fate. . .but, not likely in my lifetime.
 
A very good answer to your question can be found in any of the Supica Nahas editions of their SCSW books. The condition section does a great job of determining condition ratings based on a combination of age and original finish.

Patina is nothing more than oxidation, which is rust, BUT not the flaking and pitting that one thinks of. A couple hundred years ago, a rust finish was applied to firearms as a finish. Acid was applied and allowed the metal to rust, then carded and repeated until a very durable wear surface was obtained. Brown in color and very smooth, much like the patina you see on an old finish worn gun. I like guns with sharp edges, smooth metal that show their age and use, with no abuse. It took a long time for that brown finish to appear on the 1899 and I rather fancy it as a badge of honest graceful aging and not a defect.
 
Gary has it right.

A blued finish is after all a form of oxidation or "rust". The difference is that it's a stable form of rust. As noted above "rust bluing" used to be the standard method, and it's still used on some custom arms.

"Browning" was applied to older firearms, and in particular muzzle loading firearms prior to 1850. It is also a form of stabilized rust finish.

A patina isn't much different and anyone who has seen an older Winchester rifle or carbine, like a pre-1900 1873 Winchester understands that there is a significant difference between a patina finish and plain old "rust".

As noted above, a nice patina finish on an older Winchester isn't a bad finish. Similarly, it isn't a bad finish on a pre-1900 S&W, but apparently the S&W fans here are not really tuned into older firearms or patina finishes.
 
As noted above, a nice patina finish on an older Winchester isn't a bad finish. Similarly, it isn't a bad finish on a pre-1900 S&W, but apparently the S&W fans here are not really tuned into older firearms or patina finishes.
Click to expand...

1899 models came with a high gloss blued finish. So to a collector, the original finish is definitely preferred and much more valuable compared to patina, not that we aren't "tuned into" older firearms or patina. I believe you will find a lot of S&W fans who collect other brands of older firearms. It's just more valuable in the condition that it left the factory in, not what it turns into over the years.
 
Patina usually occurs on old guns with the finish completely worn off, then left and ignored for many years. A fine old revolver that is continually handled and kept clean on a frequent basis for decades will have a smooth worn shiny surface, not a patina.
 
Rust and bluing are two chemically different forms of iron oxide. There are several forms of iron oxide, but ordinary iron rust resulting from the exposure of iron to moisture is red or brown rust (Fe2O3). The type of bluing used on gun steel finishes is black rust or magnetite (Fe3O4) and is obtained today mainly from immersion of steel in a hot caustic/nitrate solution. What most would call "patina" on guns is essentially red or brown rust, not black rust.
 
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H Richard said:
Patina usually occurs on old guns with the finish completely worn off, then left and ignored for many years. A fine old revolver that is continually handled and kept clean on a frequent basis for decades will have a smooth worn shiny surface, not a patina.
Click to expand...

Very true. But it does occur even on guns with blue finish when not cared for. Like not wiping of moisture/sweat from hands after use and not keeping the surface oiled.
 
I believe that bluing doesn't necessarily get worn off. I have a number of long guns--Winchester, Sharps, Stevens,etc--that were left hanging on the wall for years. The side of the gun on the wall side will be blue in color where the side exposed to sunlight will be a shade of brown. The same can happen to guns stored 'dry'. My hair used to be red but I'm not sure its current color can be blamed on sunlight.
 
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quinn said:
I believe that bluing doesn't necessarily get worn off. .....
Click to expand...

There are definitely other factors involved in whether and how fast bluing disappears or morphs into patina or nothing at all. It is likely a combination of age, use rub, climate, storage, care, etc.

For a quick comparison, look at the two photos attached. I'm showing you Colts instead of S&W's just because I happen to have these pictures handy, taken under identical lighting conditions.

Both shipped with an identical blue finish. The Model 1908 Vest Pocket shipped in 1911 and its blue is, except for some corner wear, present and intact. The Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless shipped in 1917, and its blue has completely worn off, except in some "low-traffic" areas where shades of a mottled brown patina remain.
 

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Well, all I have here is that old Winchesters have a predictable habit of showing up with thin to no blue on the receiver and excellent finish on the barrel and other parts. Ithaca shotguns do the same, and color case hardening tends to fade when exposed to sunlight; I have had several hand ejectors with brilliant case hardening colors under the sideplate but almost none in the exposed areas.

As to the 1899, there's a 6 1/2" 38 in about the finish level discussed for @$250 in Maryville last time I looked, and a (considerably overpriced) 5" 32-20 that's slightly rougher for $425 that's been with a gun show vendor for over a year. While a 32-20 will shoot plum through a man, that one is rough and the knob on the end of the ejector rod's missing.
 
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