Today while rummaging through the safe in my quest to thin the herd, I came across S130833, a really nice Model of 1955 .45 Target revolver with the scarce U shaped main spring. . While taking pictures of it to post, I noticed the right grip panel is stamped S130741. Those of you who collect the early pre-25s would think that a S130XXX stamped example would date to 1955. This one, however, didn't ship until late Oct, 1957. The advanced collectors of the 44 Magnum on the other hand generally agree that most early pre-29s stamped S130XXX have the potential of being some of the earliest examples. For example, of the first 7 44 Magnums shipped between Dec, 1955 and Jan, 1956, 6 had an S130XXX serial number. The lone exception of those early guns being S147220, the revolver shipped to Elmer Keith. There is always the chance that when one comes across any S130XXX serial numbered 44 Magnum, it stands the chance of being an early example. This is not always the case though as some S130XXX guns are spread throughout 1956 and one actually shipped as late as 1960. But, all of this is generally known by collectors of the 44 magnum. What is not so well known is the fact that the early 44 magnums were built on frames already designated to become the Model of 1955. This is why collectors will sometimes discover a serial number stamped inside the right grip panel of the 1955 walnut target stocks that do not match the serial number of the revolver that wears them. In this case, S130833 is wearing stocks stamped S130741 which, in actuality, became a Feb,1956 shipped revolver and one of the first .44 Magnums produced. I realize this is getting down in the weeds a little. Hopefully, Bill or Bob will jump in here and maybe flesh this out a little for those interested.

Enjoy,
Chuck
























S130741 .44 Magnum

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Droooooool

I have S130745 and it's a Model of 1955 45acp

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Have you checked to see if there is a serial number stamped inside the right grip panel? It would be great that if so, it matches the serial number of the revolver.

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I don't have the serial number stamped in the right grip.In the right grip is the assembly number in pencil.

The revolver has 5 screws and a 6 groove backstrap

Attached Images

IMG_20170331_173427.jpg (37.4 KB, 55 views)

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Do you know when your revolver shipped?

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No,I'm not the original owner and find no reason to letter it.

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I'm not the original owner of mine either and glad I'm not as it would make me too old to be worrying about S&Ws or anything else.

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Target stocks were very much less likely to have a serial # on the stock, but if they did, they'd be stamped.

After 1929 stocks were no longer penciled and not with the assembly # in any period. Most likely penciled by a former owner so he wouldn't mix up his stocks on other N frames he owned.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The shipped date can have little to do with when it was produced anyway.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo, the shipping date is considered the birth or production date for S&W revolvers. That's why collectors get factory letters, especially for older, more scare/possibly rare examples. A shipping date can mean the difference between hundreds to even thousands in value depending on what the letter states about a particular gun. This is also why most S&W collectors will pass on a gun that hasn't been lettered. Buy the letter, not the story...

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Not THAT is blueing! Just beautiful..

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Chuck, I am confused by your post and a little more by the included factory letter. The letter that you provide is referencing a gun with serial number S130741 ( a .44 magnum that matches the stock number of your gun) which states that the gun was "shipped" from the factory on 3-22-1956 and delivered to Jesse Harper Co., Tampa, FL. The letter goes on to state that your gun was one of 6 .44 magnums taken by the S&W Assistant Sales Manager to the Tampa, FL National Mid-Winter Pistol Championships in March of 1956.

The letter goes on to state that after the match, these guns were turned over to Mr. Jesse Harper, S&W's distributor located in Tampa, FL.

SO, was the gun shipped to him or given to him after the matches??????

The letter goes on to state that these 6 guns had serial numbers ranging from the 130,XXX group, the 147,XXX group and the 160,XXX group so I am not understanding if these guns were part of the first 10 guns made how it can be felt that only guns with a 130,XXX serial number can be the first ones made.

You also state that your gun shipped in February 1956 but the letter states March 22, 1956.

So again, I am a little confused.

As is the case of many S&W's, I would say that sometime in the life of your gun, the stocks were removed and replaced with those from another S&W. Did you ever letter the gun bearing serial number S 130833?

As we all know, manufacture dates, assembly dates and shipping dates have no relationship to each other. Frames were run in batches and assigned serial numbers from a chosen block. These frames were then handed out to a myriad of assemblers in no order to be assembled. As each assembler completed his daily batch, they were handed off to someone else to do their work. All in all, by the time a frame became a completed firearm ready to be placed in the vault for shipment, there was no order to the serial number sequence and as a gun was removed for shipment, the serial number was recorded. This is the information that Roy provides in his history letter.

This is why low serial number guns show up months or even years later after higher serial numbered guns have shipped out.

We collectors sometimes forget that in 1956 these guns were just a product to be sold for money and not some desirable collectible that future gun nuts would drool over and obsess over their correct numbered stocks, cardboard boxes or correct SAT's.

I look forward to a continued discussion.

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James Redfield
LM #497

James...the six 44 Magnums being discussed (including S130741) were built at the end of February 1956. The Magnums were taken to the Mid-Winter Matches along with several other models as part of the factory display. After the matches were completed, the guns were delivered to Jesse Harpe by Fred Miller of S&W. However, they were not invoiced until March 22, 1956 when the paperwork finally caught up with the sale and delivery.

Concerning the stamping of the serial number of 130741 on the right stock panel of the 1955 Target, I believe this is easily explained. Mr. Jinks has long been of the opinion some of the earliest 44 Magnums were built with grip frames originally intended for 1955 45 Target revolvers. The frame with serial number S130741 was originally going to be a 1955 45 Target and had stocks serial numbered to that frame, however, it was actually used to make a 44 Magnum and the stocks were put on the gun Chuck has in his collection.

Bill

JSRIII,
to answer your questions, what the good DOC44 said... Thank you Bill.
Chuck

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Bill, why wouldn't the stocks have been used then on the gun with matching serial number?

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James Redfield
LM #497

James...44 Magnums were made with special (meaning larger area of checkering) oversize (meaning target) stocks made of Goncalo alves. The stocks made of walnut would not have been correct for a 44 Magnum. It is not particularly unusual to find a 1955 45 Target or a .357 Combat Magnum with target stocks that are numbered, but not to the revolver.

Bill

Bill I am not trying to be dense here but I am definitely not getting something.

The stocks pictured above are numbered 130741 and according to the letter from Roy go to a .44 magnum.

The gun bears a serial number of S 130833 and is .45 caliber of 1955.

So my question is where are the stocks for gun S 130833? Why would they not have shipped together with the .45 from the beginning. I understand that over time gun owners take stocks off, try other styles and sometimes even mistakenly mixed up the stocks on guns within their collections. There are more stories of wrong numbered stocks reported here on this forum than the reverse.

My understanding is that it is not unusual to find unnumbered target stocks on a S&W as they were available as a separate item.

I was also under the impression that guns shipped with target stocks would or could be numbered to the gun as they originally shipped together.

Still confused????

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James Redfield
LM #497

James...the stocks serial numbered 130741 were put on S130833 when it was manufactured. Some of the early 1955 45 Target revolvers and .357 Combat Magnums have stocks that are original to them, but stamped with different serial numbers. For example, I have Combat Magnum, K260190, with stocks (original to it), but stamped with 260388. There are other examples reported on this Forum of 45 Targets with stocks numbered to other guns as well as Combat Magnums with stocks numbered to other guns. There are also examples of stocks numbered to the guns. I believe S&W originally was going to number the target stocks on these models and numbered an unknown number of pairs, but it became apparent this was unnecessary and the company used the stocks at random, some going on the guns originally as intended and some going on guns with other serial numbers. When the stocks with number 130741 were not needed for a 44 Magnum, they were put back into the "pile" so to speak and were put on S130833 when it was manufactured. There are no other stocks for S130833.

Bill

The letter only supplies the shipping date because that's the only date available to Roy. He does not have the actual production (birth) date. But in reality, production dates and shipping dates can vary by days, weeks, months and as much as 10 years in extreme cases during the depression. Another example is the 32-20 M&Ps which were not produced after the 1920s but shipped as late as ~ WW II.

In those cases the features of the gun like extractor rod style, original matching # style of stocks, etc., will be far more accurate for identifying the guns actual production date.

The value of the letter is in verifying various features of the gun as factory original, like barrel length, target features, finish, other rare parts, celebrity delivery, etc., not the shipping date. That's just "nice" to know. We settle for knowing the shipping date as desirable only because there's no real production date associated with the revolver available.

Note: some members have access to the floor foreman's production date logs and only in those cases can the production date be confirmed.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim...guns made after 1946, the daily manufacturing log only lists the manufacture of a model by its factory designation, NT-430 for the 44 Magnum, NT-357 for the .357 Magnum, etc. For example, it will show 17 NT-430 being made on a certain date. There is no reference to serial number, barrel length, or finish. Based on these data, it is not possible to know when a gun with a specific serial number was made. If the model is popular and guns are shipped out fairly quickly, you can make a correlation between manufacture and shipping date, but that is about the best you can do.

I have not looked at any data for guns made prior to WW II, so I do not know what exists for them.

Bill

"Another example is the 32-20 M&Ps which were not produced after the 1920s but shipped as late as ~ WW II."

While I have no evidence for my theory, I have always felt that it was likely that S&W occasionally assembled and finished .32-20 M&Ps in small batches to fill what few orders which were received after production stopped in 1929-30 by using up earlier .32-20 components (frames, barrels, and cylinders) remaining in factory parts inventory. In the 1930s, there certainly would have been enough time on the S&W workers' hands to do that. It has been reported that one .32-20 M&P (SN 141611) shipped in 1965, but I have no details about it. For sure, SN 143083 shipped in 8/38.

Bill,

Agreed after 1946. Many of us are forced to keep databases of model, serial #, features and shipping date if known. Only in this way can we identify trends in variation of production date vs. shipping date. Some guns are close and some have a large disparity and we call those late shippers. Popular model dates are close, of course 'slow movers' have greater disparities.

Pre war production logs are much more informative with serial # and most features like original finish, barrel length, etc.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This is my kinda stuff, guys.

While I have nothing to add to the general discussion, I can certainly laud the expertise on display here. There is no better way for someone like me to become exposed to this level of detail about a topic for which I have developed much curiosity (i.e., how the factory letter relates to S&W's manufacturing nuances, etc.). It's like I was sitting in a room with a bunch of guys with decades of hands-on experience talking to subjects that interest me without my even having to ask the right questions.

Very cool...

^^^^^^^^What he said. Thanks guys.

OK, so if we take serial numbers as any kind of shipping reference, S130741 (a .44 magnum per Roy's letter) shipped before a .45 Model of 1955 with serial number S 130833.

The company shipped out the .44 magnum (again per Roy's letter) but it apparently shipped with stocks not numbered to it's frame.

The company then shipped out (at some later date based on the serial number being almost 100 guns later) a .45 Model of 1955 wearing another set of miss matched stocks taken from the aforementioned .44 magnum.

I guess that this is the part that I am having so much trouble with. A company that had prided itself with numbering stocks to their guns all of a sudden decides to ship out two guns within 100 serial numbers from each other both with stocks not numbered to their frames.

Again, please understand that I am not trying to be difficult here and I don't own examples of either of these guns so know very little about them. I know that you and Chuck know reams about these models and I am only trying to learn and understand.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I'm fairly new to this thus I am also confused. The pics of the 1955 clearly show a set of non-relieved target stocks, presumably made of walnut. I'm assuming these are the pair numbered 130741. Chuck's last pic shows an 'N' frame with, what appear to me to be, as set of relieved Cokes which would be correct for a 44 Magnum. Is this 44 Magnum SN 130741? Does Chuck own both revolvers?

From the dialog above, we know this:

.44 Mags were newly introduced and the hot sellers, 45s not so much.

Therefore S&W completed 45 frames as 44 Magnums instead.

Chuck has 44 Magnum #S130741 that was originally slated to be assembled as a 45 target, therefore it had non-relieved walnut targets fit to it and stamped with a matching #S130741.

Those target stocks were not correct for a 44 Mag which came with Special Targets of Goncalo Alves that we more commonly know as "cokes".

So the 44 #S130741 was refitted with cokes as shown in the photo. The non-relieved targets of walnut were sent to the stock bin to be recycled on an N frame that they were appropriate for.

Chuck was incredibly lucky to also acquire the 45 target #S130833 on which the n-r target walnut stocks #S130741 (originally belonging to the frame his 44 mag was assembled from), had been recycled to!

End of story.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim thanks for clarifying. Nowhere in the original post did I get the sense that Chuck owned both guns. He starts out saying that he went to the safe and found the .45 and while taking it apart for photos noticed the stocks for a different gun. I assumed that the letter was requested to get a history on the serial number attached to the miss matched stocks found on the .45 and it was determined that they belonged to a .44 magnum.

In looking at the photos again I can see that the last photo is not the same gun as pictured in the preceding photos.

I am still surprised that S&W recycled pre numbered stocks and wouldn't have made some effort to remove the prior serial number and replace it with the one matching the new frame number. Even when using cardboard from other guns or barrel lengths or sight configurations, some effort was made to cross out old information or add a correcting paper label.

Just didn't sound like typical S&W procedure.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Chuck,

Clearly two very gorgeous and collectible N frames. I made the presumption that they are both yours which may not be correct. But an excellent pair to be in the same collection that documents one historical story of S&W practices at the time.

I am naturally most interested at this point in the caliber codes stamped on the grip frames. Do you observe any anomalies similar to the stocks:

CALIBER CODE single digit number stamped on grip frame: N frames only. The normal side for the cal. code # is the left side.

357 Mag no number code observed
38 special will have an 8
44 special has a 4
44 Mag has a 0
45 ACP has a 5
45 colt should have a number 7 on either side of the grip frame (convertibles stamped E5 & E7)

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, you are correct. The grip frames of N frames in particular (I don't have any expertise with the other frame sizes) are stamped as you have listed. Thanks for pointing this out. One never really knows where a post will wind up going. I thought there would be a comment or two about the U shaped mainspring which Elmer Keith mentions in his book Sixguns.
Chuck

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Perhaps a final point, stocks on 44 Magnums were not numbered so S130741 was sent out with correct stocks.

Bill

That is cool! You said it was rare, any idea how many shipped that way?

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Miss Buddies crsides & fat tom

No idea actually. There is also a W shaped mainspring that came a little later. Maybe another member here might know more specifics on these not often seen mainsprings.
Chuck

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