South African Victory Model

Hi all,

This site has been very informative!! I am a collector from South Africa and received two .38S&W revolvers as a gift, one is a "Pre Victory" and the other is a Victory Model.

I just wanted to show my Victory model (I hope that the images were attached). I am still waiting for the Pre Victory Licence (Licensing process is difficult here...) Unfortunately, someone took the hammer, trigger and screws to a buffing machine, but other than that, all seems to be original and the revolver seems to have seen little use. The grips are quite dinged up, but the revolver was thrown in a steel bin with a lot of other weapons.

The Serial number is V3192, but there is also another number stamped on the backstrap under the Union Military stamp. Would this number have been stamped at the factory? or was this done in South Africa?

I also received a quantity of South African Military 38s&w 146gr FMJ ammo which is quite accurate out of the Victory. I measured on of the bullets, which measure .355. I have not slugged the Victory's barrel but was surprised, as I thought the official Dia. was .361.

I never really paid much attention to wheelguns, but I must say that I am hooked on them!!!

I didn't know that the issued ammo had so light a bullet. Thought it'd be a nominal 178 grains, and that the .38-200 guns were sighted for that.


We have a member who is a noted collector in your country, and another topic in this forum where he added much info to the store of that on South African WWII S&W revolvers.


I'm sorry that your second revolver has suffered some misfortunes. Hope you soon get the licensing done. Like maybe before Pistorious gets out of jail, ha! Seriously, best of luck with the bureaucracy. If that gun also shoots well with the jacketed 146 grain load, it'll be interesting.


Yes, the .38-200 guns are supposed to have bores around .360-.361. I suspect that some are tighter. This may be why I read in a UK gun magazine years ago that some S&W's used by RAF shooting teams had bullets stick in the barrels! Apparenty, this doesnt happen with Webley and Enfield revolvers, as they were correctly bored. I wouldn't be amazed if it can be proven that S&W sometimes shipped guns bored for .38 Special loads. And some wartime ammo was loaded light, giving poor velocity.


Did you see the topics/threads here about the early SA S&W guns being with four-inch barrels? There has been a wealth of info here on that and on others. Peter has shown his five-inch .38-200 carried by a warrant officer in an armored car regiment, and we saw a six-inch gun carried by a SAAF major who flew with the RAF in both North Africa and in Burma.


I read on the Net that South African gun owners are limited to ten firearms. Is that true? Or, can you get a collectors' license and own more?


What are your gun laws like in general?


BTW, welcome to the board. You'll find about three other South Africans here. One's in Cape Town. Don't know the others' locations.


The man in Cape Town told me that an Animal Planet or Discovery shark program about a huge white shark there was, as I suspected, a fake "documentary." The shark was just too large and acting too oddly to have been real.


I'm sure that you'll get other replies, but I'm happy to be the first to welcome you and say how interesting I find your comment about .355" bullets in .38-200 loads!

TDB said:

......
The Serial number is V3192, but there is also another number stamped on the backstrap under the Union Military stamp. Would this number have been stamped at the factory? or was this done in South Africa?

I also received a quantity of South African Military 38s&w 146gr FMJ ammo which is quite accurate out of the Victory. I measured on of the bullets, which measure .355. I have not slugged the Victory's barrel but was surprised, as I thought the official Dia. was .361.
.....

Click to expand...

Any stamping on the backstrap, including the number on your revolver, is post-factory, and I'm fairly certain it goes with the South African markings.

The serial puts your gun in summer 1942. You don't mention it, but the gun should have the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap. By that time, all shipments to Commonwealth nations would have been under Lend-lease.

Interesting about the ammo. I assume it is post-war military ammo, not vintage war production?

Interesting piece. Love the photos.

Texas Star, I measured and weighed three bullets again, see the attached image. The bullet on the left actually got stuck in the barrel about half an inch past the lead and ruined the range session (squib load) had to go home and it was difficult to get out!

The other two were pulled. The weights averaged about 145,5gr. I have only shot the revolver once, but it shot to POA at 10 meters using this ammo.

On the gun laws in South Africa… The laws are really restrictive and the Central Firearms Registry has a bad record of being badly managed, appointment of incompetent personnel, unfair refusals etc…

The Registry also cannot handle the administrative burden of all the license applications. The system is really inefficient. This results in endless delays with licence applications.

A normal citizen is restricted to 4 firearms, but there are special categories for Collectors etc... Luckily collectors are not limited i.t.o numbers, but there is a separate application for each firearm and I need to provide extensive “motivation” and proof of how any weapon will fit into my collection.

Some sections of the Firearms Control Act are currently being challenged in court as being unconstitutional and the sitting Judge labelled some sections as “Bad Law”. Hopefully something better will come out of the court cases.

Absalom said:

Any stamping on the backstrap, including the number on your revolver, is post-factory, and I'm fairly certain it goes with the South African markings.

The serial puts your gun in summer 1942. You don't mention it, but the gun should have the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp on the topstrap. By that time, all shipments to Commonwealth nations would have been under Lend-lease.

Interesting about the ammo. I assume it is post-war military ammo, not vintage war production?

Click to expand...

Absalom, the cartridges are ’79 –’80s vintage military ammo, the headstamp reads: A78 R1M1 9,65 and was made by PMP (our local ammo producer)
Yes, the top strap is marked UNITED STATES PROPERTY.
Thank you ‘Mericans for your Lend Lease Program, It has provided us with some really good stuff!!!

I hope no one minds, but I rotated the OP's photos to their proper orientation so we can see them better.

I was getting a headache looking at them upside down.

And the last one...

Hello TBD, and welcome to the forum. Texas Star doesn't know my location, but there is a clue in my User name; you get first guess!

Now to your ex Union Defence Force (UDF) revolver. As you will discover from other threads, I have done a great deal of research on these S&W guns. Yes, the Arrow in U and the number below it were stamped at the Central Armoury in Pretoria when the guns arrived from the US. I cannot quite make out the number on your gun, so please let me know what it is or my records.

As to the ammo, during WW II the UDF used British made .380 Mark II 178 gr standard Enfield revolver stuff. After the war when stocks were depleted some commercial Gevolet was purchased for training purposes, and then in 1959/60 the SA Mint commenced production of the Mark II 178 gr. In 1969 PMP (SAM ammo production had been moved to PMP) reduced the bullet weight to 165 gr (I don't know why), and then in 1971 to 145gr (again why?). This latter remained the bullet weight until production ceased in the 1980s.

Peter