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08-19-2020, 08:59 PM
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Number 4365 appears to have no markings on the barrel and remains in its original .455 Webley configuration.
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08-19-2020, 09:09 PM
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Thank you mrcvs for reporting this to Jim. I was unaware of this thread and will now enjoy reviewing all the post.
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08-19-2020, 10:38 PM
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Jim, Below are pictures of the triple lock I did not win last week. It is serial number 444.
I will let you decipher the data from the pictures. I believe it is marked on the right side of the barrel the way the British do it. The pictures are pretty detailed.
I am pretty sure I won the right one with SN: 4365. Although, it cost a bit more.
Last edited by lamarw; 08-19-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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09-12-2020, 01:58 AM
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2nd Model
serial no 28339
No caliber stamp
Marked 3MD on backstrap
Location Australia
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09-12-2020, 10:08 AM
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nudge,
here's another Aussie....
Untitled
(I haven't posted this in a awhile, so maybe there are those that haven't seen it...)
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09-20-2020, 08:25 PM
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I just acquired a S&W .455 Mark II, serial number 35284.
The LHS of the barrel:
SMITH & WESSON .455.
Note the full stop. Nothing on the RHS of the barrel.
It has been refinished so some of the markings are smeared looking. It has the Broad Arrow, etc., on the LHS upper rear of the frame. Other than the re-blue and replacement M1917 stocks, it is unmodified.
Haven't lettered it and probably won't, but from the data Jim has compiled, it looks like it probably shipped at the very end of 1915.
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09-21-2020, 01:51 AM
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Thank you Jack!
I have added yours and updated the list post #223, page 5.
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10-31-2020, 03:45 PM
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Another Triple lock for the list
Another Triple lock for the list:
6.5" barrel
No caliber markings on barrel
No military markings
sn 5755
appears to be all org. and shows almost no wear
Caliber is .455
Located in Canada
Would this one go in your TL category 0, 1 or 2?
thanks
Tom
Last edited by Tom 3Persons; 11-01-2020 at 12:28 PM.
Reason: location
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10-31-2020, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 3Persons
Another Triple lock for the list:
6.5" barrel
No caliber markings on barrel
No military markings
sn 5755
appears to be all org. and shows almost no wear
Caliber is .455
Located in Alberta
Would this one go in your TL category 0, 1 or 2?
thanks
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Thank you for another to add to the list, especially #5755. In addition to being in show-stopper condition, it's extremely unique!!
Does it have any import/export/civilian proof marks stamped on it, although no military marks as you posted?
It is one of the rare 67 .455 Triple Lock #s that was used twice:
In the .44 Spl # range for a category 1 factory converted-to-.455 TLs, and in the .455 British # range for a category 2 .455 1st Model Triple Lock!
It cannot be a category 0 serial # which all have .44 Spl # range serial #s, because your # was used on a category 1 .455 TL.
Knowing this dilemma existed, I've awaited for one to show up for some years now. It's going to be difficult to determine which you have even with a letter, since both categories shipment dates overlapped quite a bit beginning in 1914. And neither category TLs had the caliber stamp on the barrel!
However, as near as I can deduce, there's two possible ways to distinguish between the category 1 and 2 TLs:
#1. many of the cat. 1 TL frames were already numbered when converted to .455 at the factory, and will therefore have the lanyard swivel drilled thru the butt serial # with the # re-stamped at the bottom of the left side of the grip frame under the left grip panel. Is yours like that?
#2. several of the cat. 2 TLs at the end of the #1 - #5800 range were sold into the commercial market and would not have any military marks as you described. It might have Canadian civilian import marks however.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
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11-01-2020, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
It is one of the rare 64 .455 Triple Lock #s that was used twice:
in the .44 Spl # range for a category 1 factory converted-to-.455 TLs and in the .455 British # range for a category 2 .455 1st Model Triple Lock!
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Is this one of those 64 you describe, serial number 5245, no markings on the barrel, and (presumably) in .455 Webley? It does have an offset serial number on the butt to accommodate for the lanyard ring and it is probable that the original serial number was centrally located and mostly obliterated by the hole drilled for the lanyard ring and by the lanyard ring itself.
However, be advised that this one shipped in March 1912, well before WWI and the contract with the British government.
S&W 1st Model Hand Ejector (Triplelock) Revolver |
Firearms & Military Artifacts
Firearms
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| Auctions Online | Proxibid
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11-01-2020, 09:34 AM
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Removed - my information appeared in an earlier post above.
Last edited by jmace57; 11-01-2020 at 09:42 AM.
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11-01-2020, 12:12 PM
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11-01-2020, 08:00 PM
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Tom,
Thank you.
I look forward to lighter photos once you receive it but it does appear to be unmarked with neither military nor civilian import marks.
At this point I have to conclude it's a category 2. Your #5755 (the highest # known of the 67 duplicates) is one of some of this cat. 2 model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
All of the 666 TLs from Category 1 were shipped to England as military contract guns. The remainder of the original total of 812 factory converted to .455 were shipped commercially and have known serial #s.
How yours got to Canada is likely similar to the story of #5788 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, 6 1/2”, 1 of 5 in a Com’l shipment June 4, 1915 to Hurd & Co, Canada. Might have even been in the same shipment, and a letter would confirm this.
Congrats!!!!
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Last edited by Hondo44; 11-02-2020 at 02:23 AM.
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11-01-2020, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs
Is this one of those 64 you describe, serial number 5245, no markings on the barrel, and (presumably) in .455 Webley? It does have an offset serial number on the butt to accommodate for the lanyard ring and it is probable that the original serial number was centrally located and mostly obliterated by the hole drilled for the lanyard ring and by the lanyard ring itself.
However, be advised that this one shipped in March 1912, well before WWI and the contract with the British government.
[url=https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/S-W-1st-Model-Hand-Ejector-Triplelock-Revolver/lotInformation/56829867]S&W 1st Model Hand Ejector (Triplelock) Revolver |
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No, this one was originally a 44 Spl, and may still be, this is the one the jury is still out on possibly being a 455 conversion, correct?
There are no other 4 digit serial #s beginning with a 5 in the 666 Category 1 revolvers below #5755, so it can't be a duplicate. It could be a duplicate .44 Spl # with a category 2 .455 British #. There's almost 6000 of those.
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11-08-2020, 08:17 PM
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2nd model 455 British proofed
Mine is ser. 36322 marked 455
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11-08-2020, 08:44 PM
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Thank you, I'll add to the study!
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11-12-2020, 11:22 AM
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On the inside of the frame where cyl. Yoke goes. There is a mark Troys and under that is very small jewelry stampings letters very hard to read. My 1914 Colt New service 455 eley has the same markings under the barrel hidden by the ejector rod. Buying agent for English goverment?? They used buying agents. Ever see these micro marks.
Last edited by jeeps; 11-12-2020 at 12:06 PM.
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11-13-2020, 12:51 AM
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Serial number of this TL is 355.
British proofs,broad arrow head
right side of barrel stamped with 455, pressure #,760
455 stamped on left grip frame, along with conversion date 275 to.45 Colt.
Crown and Gp stamped on each cyl.
cross flags on left side front of frame
No stampings on left side of barrel
Richard
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11-13-2020, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeps
... There is a mark Troys and under that is very small jewelry stampings letters very hard to read. My 1914 Colt New service 455 eley has the same markings under the barrel hidden by the ejector rod. Buying agent for English goverment?? They used buying agents. Ever see these micro marks.
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Knowing no specifics, my suspicion would go in the direction of sloppily applied importer marks.
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11-13-2020, 03:16 AM
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I picked this one up a couple of months ago.
SN 39XXX
Barrel stamped with S&W .455 on left side.
Crossed flags stamped on the left side of frame where the barrel screws in and on the rear face of the cylinder.
Flaming bomb stamped on the horn area of the grip on the left side.
No markings on right side other than the S&W logo on the sideplate.
Modified (semi-ramp) front sight
Refinished in hard chrome.
Reamed to accept 45 Colt.
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Last edited by BC38; 05-24-2021 at 12:41 PM.
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11-13-2020, 09:06 PM
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Looks like M1917 stocks on that one. Do they have a serial number?
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11-13-2020, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbs
Serial number of this TL is 355.
British proofs,broad arrow head
right side of barrel stamped with 455, pressure #,760
455 stamped on left grip frame, along with conversion date 275 to.45 Colt.
Crown and Gp stamped on each cyl.
cross flags on left side front of frame
No stampings on left side of barrel
Richard
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That's a real stunner.
A variation #2. ".455 HE - 1st Model Triple Lock"
Factory converted and refinished according to the R-S in rectangle (refinish standard) in Feb 1975.
Thank you,
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11-14-2020, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash
Looks like M1917 stocks on that one. Do they have a serial number?
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No they are not numbered to the gun or numbered at all for that matter. I suspect they are repro's.
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11-14-2020, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38
No they are not numbered to the gun or numbered at all for that matter. I suspect they are repro's.
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Ok.
The reason I asked is that I just bought a .455 Second Model which has M1917 stocks. These stocks do have a serial number in pencil which is in the WWI M1917 range. Of course, anybody could have written that number at any time over the last 100 years.
I will start my own thread about my gun and see if anyone has the M1917 with the same serial number as my stocks. Got to take some pictures first.
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11-14-2020, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash
Ok.
The reason I asked is that I just bought a .455 Second Model which has M1917 stocks. These stocks do have a serial number in pencil which is in the WWI M1917 range. Of course, anybody could have written that number at any time over the last 100 years.
I will start my own thread about my gun and see if anyone has the M1917 with the same serial number as my stocks. Got to take some pictures first.
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Gotcha. I look forward to that thread - I have an old commercial 1917 that has been separated from its original stocks too...
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11-17-2020, 12:10 AM
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Jim,
Here's another TL for you list. Serial number 1510. I believe it falls into the second batch.
A previous owner had it lettered, which states it shipped December 1, 1914. No caliber stamp. Only the patent date roll mark atop the barrel plus the numerous British proof stamps.
It has been converted to 45 Colt by shaving the recoil shield and wears a set of earlier flattened top stocks, numbered 4288, as the best that my eyes can discern.
John
Last edited by TIMETRIPPER; 11-17-2020 at 12:14 AM.
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11-17-2020, 10:26 AM
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Thank you John.
Correct a 2nd variation TL, ".455 HE - 1st Model".
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11-17-2020, 04:23 PM
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With reference to the revolver in posts 265 and 267 above:
Definitely a badly struck importer's mark: LEROY'S / GLASGOW, MT
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Last edited by DCWilson; 11-17-2020 at 04:26 PM.
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11-21-2020, 06:35 PM
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More Pics of TL sn 5755 as requested upon arrival
Last edited by Tom 3Persons; 11-22-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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11-21-2020, 06:47 PM
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More Pics of TL sn 5755 as requested upon arrival #2
Last edited by Tom 3Persons; 11-22-2020 at 04:42 PM.
Reason: Fix Pictures
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11-21-2020, 10:02 PM
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That one is a real beaut Tom...
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11-22-2020, 12:30 AM
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Jim, for your list; I have TL #12750 (your category 4)
Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps.
Regards
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11-22-2020, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44wheelman
Jim, for your list; I have TL #12750 (your category 4) Marked Smith & Wesson .455. No British stamps.
Regards
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Thank you.
I agree, a 4th variation, produced in 1916 and one of 325 shipped to Shapleigh Hardware, St Louis, MO on December 29, 1917.
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11-23-2020, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 3Persons
Note the lack of bluing on the latch below the ejector rod. Not sure why this is.
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The factory specified case hardening for the third-latch plate. If you see a blued Triple-Lock with a blued plate, it should be considered evidence of a refinish.
Really nice specimen.
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Don't know if this helps - LINK REMOVED AS APPARENTLY A NO-NO
Scrummy
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Thank you, it does. Added to the study.
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12-12-2020, 08:51 PM
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Have posted elsewhere, however to add to the listing -
Serial #64344 from Shapleigh Dec 1917 IIRC. No British markings, still in .455. Bought it off GB from a small store it Kansas - am guessing the gun wasn't all that well traveled.
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12-13-2020, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsf
Have posted elsewhere, however to add to the listing -
Serial #64344 from Shapleigh Dec 1917 IIRC. No British markings, still in .455. Bought it off GB from a small store it Kansas - am guessing the gun wasn't all that well traveled.
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Thank you. Is it stamped .455 on the left side of the barrel?
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12-14-2020, 10:24 PM
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Another TL
TL #5792
No caliber marks
Shipped Dec.1917
Converted to 45Colt
blue/6.5 in.
all matching
95%
Can any of the experts shed any more light on this one?
Thanks in advance,
Hugh
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12-15-2020, 12:06 AM
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Hugh,
Yes! But is it stamped with any British Military, proof, import, or export marks?
THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. include some triple locks, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. “If” roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book’ references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the “455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model", which the British stamped “II” on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
Note: The WWI British contract Colt revolver is marked ".455 ELEY", different than the S&W 455 marking.
Revolver markings vary greatly depending on the country of use, military units where they were used, and when/where they were imported, proofed, exported, etc.
There were other ways for these to make their way across the Big Pond to Britain besides thru the usual Remington route; first across the border to Canada, or originally sold here in the states on the retail market and then immigrated somewhere else as evidenced by various and assorted non - USA import, export, approval, or proof stamps. Stamps also vary contingent upon how any particular revolver made the "trip(s)", official vs. unofficial channels, and how long after WWI because stamping protocol changed over time.
Yours is the 2nd version: “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to at least 5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67** duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” .455 factory conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 0 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
**There are 67 possible duplicates of TL #s of the existing 666 military shipped contract listed numbers of .44 HE 1st Model TLs factory converted to .455 (1st version above), #s 1104-5755 in the .44 HE # range (not all inclusive, known and listed [S&W 1857 – 1945 pgs. 204-205]), with 67 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1 to 5800 in the Brit contract # range. Yours is not one of those.
There can be ~ 4988 .44 TLs duplicated serial #s with .455 TLs.
Which method was it converted to 45 Colt: recessed chamber mouths, shave rear cyl face, or shaved recoil shield?
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12-15-2020, 09:42 AM
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More info. on #5792
There are no export or other marks on the gun. Recoil shield is shaved. No caliber roll marks. Grips numbered tp gun. Hope this clarifies a little. Hugh
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Thank you for the additional info. You clearly have an example of an overrun gun sold here in the states and almost assuredly it never left. A great find for a non-military collector or a shooter.
Well, not shaving the cyl is a plus on those converted guns and usually will still shoot .455 because of the long firing pins used back then, if you ever find any.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 12-15-2020 at 11:05 AM.
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12-16-2020, 06:49 PM
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I picked up a couple of more this afternoon to make for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years. One is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 1st Model Triple Lock and the other is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd Model. They both look presentable from the auction house pictures. The triple lock has the wrong stocks and the 2nd Model is missing the lanyard ring. I have a spare lanyard ring but will be looking for the proper stocks for the triple lock in case anyone can part with a set. I will provide more for Hondo's data base once I receive the revolvers. The triple lock serial number is 2934 and the 2nd Model SN is 30825.
Below are a few pictures.
OOPS! I missed the post above from MRCVS.
Last edited by lamarw; 12-17-2020 at 02:33 PM.
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12-18-2020, 02:13 AM
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Hello. I have a hand ejector smith revolver serial number 33814. Fixed sight. The barrel is about 6”. The barrel, cylinder and but plate all have the matching numbers. Forgive me I’m old and can’t see without a device and I know nothing about this gun. It was an old family members gun. I’ve read a bit here. The cylinder aft has the numbers very clearly stamped and what appears to be crossed flags. The are BP and other turkey prints and proof marks all over this gun. The cylinder holes look uniform. Here’s the catch. On the barrel just aft of the smith and Wesson stamp is .455 (However) the last numeral 5 seems to have been buffed off leaving a silver smooth spot. Thus, to the eye it says .45 scuff. It’s a beautiful gun. And I bought some modern fiochi 455 and fired it here at my Ozark farm home and I have no neighbors just dogs who snore during gunfire also with proper protection. It seems to function just delightfully. And the shell casings ejected nicely. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I’d like to use it as my dedicated gun for my 1959 willys pickup that’s all I drive. Is there something I’m unaware of with this removed last digit 5. It does not appear to be accidentally done. Thank you so much if I hear back. Thanks as well if I don’t. I understand. I only know double barrels and my Winchester trapper.
Oh, it has a d ring on the but. I’ve never seen such a nice fitting and smooth well put together gun. I found it greased in wax paper in my uncles hat box,it’s getting cold and rainy in the hills and I misplaced my hat and needed a hat and found a gun instead. I stayed in all day cleaning and coonfingering the thing. He died in 1962 in Asia. He’s buried here next to the rest.
Thank you,
Arlan
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12-18-2020, 08:04 AM
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Arlan, if you can post clear pictures of this gun, I know it will help in identifying it...Besides we just like pitchers of purdy guns... ...Ben
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12-18-2020, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamarw
I picked up a couple of more this afternoon to make for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years. One is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 1st Model Triple Lock and the other is a .455 Mark II Hand Ejector 2nd Model. They both look presentable from the auction house pictures. The triple lock has the wrong stocks and the 2nd Model is missing the lanyard ring. I have a spare lanyard ring but will be looking for the proper stocks for the triple lock in case anyone can part with a set. I will provide more for Hondo's data base once I receive the revolvers. The triple lock serial number is 2934 and the 2nd Model SN is 30825.
Below are a few pictures. OOPS! I missed the post above from MRCVS.
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lamarw & mrcvs,
Thank you both for the additions to the research study!
Congrats!! Those are both extremely nice examples at a very fair price!
The Triple Lock has the wrong stocks, it's true. But they are much more scarce, worth more than the correct stocks, and are from the 1930s with flat silver medallions. The correct stocks with recessed gold plated medallions are not hard to find since there were ~90,000 produced.
It's misrepresented in the auction description as being in the 44 HE 1st model serial range of 15,000. But it's actually #2934 British Svc Revolver serial range of the 2nd version:
“.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to over 5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67 duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” .455 factory conversion serial number range.
*Previously reported as 1 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.
The revolver #30825 BSR of the 3rd version:
3. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), and the cylinder ctr pin hole in the extractor star is reduced .020” with the associated Ext Rod rear tip reduced .020” in diameter from the TL versions, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455 (documented in Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16.) This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped ‘II’ by them, upper left rear side of frame. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range and beginning ~ after #5857 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
The grips don't fit properly and may be off the TL; check penciled serial # on the back of the right grip to verify if it matches the TL #2934.
It's interesting that both are stamped "Simpson LTD" on the butt.
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12-18-2020, 08:46 AM
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I want to point out that Arlan has a duplicate post in this thread.
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Guy
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12-18-2020, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlan
Hello. I have a hand ejector smith revolver serial number 33814. I found it greased in wax paper in my uncles hat box, it’s getting cold and rainy in the hills and I misplaced my hat and needed a hat and found a gun instead. I stayed in all day cleaning and coonfingering the thing. He died in 1962 in Asia. He’s buried here next to the rest.
Thank you,
Arlan
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Arlan,
Welcome to this forum!
What a wonderful surprise to find in a hat box! Congrats! An early Christmas for you wasn't it?
You have a S&W contract British Service Revolver ".455 Hand Ejector - 2nd Model". Shipped in 1916.
Whenever I hear of the 5 in .455 being removed, that's usually a dead giveaway that the gun was converted to shoot .45 Colt, sometimes .45 Auto. But since you were able to fire .455 ammo, this is very common when converted to .45 Colt! If you have a Colt cartridge insert it in the cyl to verify it will chamber properly. Since the rear face of the cyl does have the serial # stamped on it, that's another indication the recoil shield was "shaved" to allow for shooting the .45 Colt. Or if the chamber mouths are slightly recessed for Colt case rims and the .455 rims do not fit in them.
We'd love to see photos!
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Jim
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12-18-2020, 01:06 PM
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Thank you so much. I might have a visitor who brought me this computer and she may help me add photos. Right now I was wondering if it’s OK to use this gun with the 455 rounds I have. Not for shooting a lot. Just to have in case in my truck.
My best friend Linden has a 45 that he had in Normandy. All he’s ever said is that the sea water turned red. He’s 95-7 I think. His wife died last week she was 93 and I helped him bury her at his place. There were two young fellas watching us from behind trees up in the timber. One had his whole face tattoos. Linden said they were meth heads and have been cooking up there. Linden wears his 45. I’d like to wear my uncles gun I found. I’ve made a holster for it already. These guys have a pickup with no glass left in it up there. Linden and I are going to drop some trees across the old login road so they can’t get back up there anymore. They have no business being up there it’s lindens property.
I don’t want to shoot anyone and if I had to it would be my dads old 94 30-30. But I’m just asking this 455 gun is in beautiful condition being modified and all in one who knows opinions is it safe to shoot the 455s in it. I liked the way it shot with the 455s. A different sound. Not loud. Hardly any kick and grouped at 50 yards. I understand what I’m asking. And what I am not asking is that you boys can say I can or should use this gun for self defense. Today I put a 455 fiochi in the cylinder and examined it with my magnifier and it fit the recess perfectly like a mouses ear. It’s a fine gun with no scratches even. A deep blue and fits my damaged hand perfectly.
Linden has 500 acres of mostly timber I have 400 adjoining his some cattle and fescue pasture. I told him it’s like a circus train crashed somewhere and the fellas that survived crawled up here.
Thank you very much.
Arlan
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