Hello Forum,

Years of lurking on this Forum, then joining, learning, contributing my 2 cents every now and then, accumulating, etc. has now absolutely convinced me beyond any shadow of doubt that what I thought were "Grail" guns just do not exist period.

I've been hunting, shooting, enjoying firearms for 57 years now, starting with relatives and other peoples guns, snagging (from a Sears mail order) a sporterized .303 in 1962, and then a brand new Ithaca M37 in same year (still have the hang tag...as those were the takedown and cleaning instructions), right up till now days.

Subject (and proof) of this post.....drooled over M28 Highway Patrolman...absolute grail gun to me, the last one ever needed, epitome of 357 Magnum versatility, then this Forum said...no comparison to a Model 27-2 in 3-1/2"...off I go on the hunt, got one...then the Forum says, no good.....best is a "Pre-27"...so out I go on the hunt again.....

I swear that one or more of you guys must know exactly when my SS check is deposited and right the night before....someone on here posts something that you just have to drool over, eyes get glazed....and here we go again!

That dang "Grail" gun is more elusive than the Unicorn. I am equally sure that my wife is trying to find a Forum photo blocker that will not allow me to view any Non Registered Magnums or for sure.....any RM of any number, any time anywhere. She probably will snag my next Rock Island Auction catalog before I get home.

Anybody agree that you can never find a grail gun?

Attached Images

	303 British -2.jpg (216.4 KB, 148 views)
	Ithaca M37-1.jpg (206.4 KB, 142 views)
	Model 28 - C1.jpg (46.6 KB, 589 views)
	M27-2 B reduced size.jpg (61.3 KB, 578 views)
	Pre 27 e.jpg (38.7 KB, 577 views)

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I've found plenty of them (British WWI contract .455, WWII British private order non-Victory .38 S&W M&P, 5" pre-war Colt O.P., the list goes on)...but much like the legends of the old knights, once one is accomplished there's always one more crusade to go on...

Charlie,

I am sorry to hear that your wife will be restricting your viewing.

I will hurry up and post one Non-Reg Magnum and one Registered Magnum for your viewing pleasure (but don't tell you wife that I did it )


Here is a nickle (started life blue) 3.5" Non-Reg. It was shipped to a PD here in Texas just before WWII. It is a fun one to shoot!




This next one is a Registered Magnum 4". It was shipped on my birthday in 1936....well I came along a number of years later, but the month and day are correct




Good luck in your search for the ultimate grail gun.

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	DSCF0487_zps33dnzyw5.jpg (288.4 KB, 650 views)

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On the Oak Savannah

Since no one seems to know exactly what the Holy Grail is, it's essentially impossible to find it. My personal one is a 1946 Mexican Model. But I have never seen one.

I agree with you that the Grail Gun can never be finally achieved, due to the harsh realities of the laws of Physics, Thermodynamics and Marketing.
S&W 500 6.5" Satin SS, 163565 is one of my closest contenders, along with a few or so various others. The three above mentioned laws prevent the synchronous agglomeration of optimum size, optimum power, optimum capacity and optimum visual aesthetics. I keep trying, though.

Well cmansguns,

Maybe I can help with some perspective, it is indeed a journey, and it does not stop, from the first day you step onto that road.

You gain knowledge as you travel, you mature along the
way, and priorities of the challenges you seek and conquer
change with the journey, and being successful in the previous
challenge.

The farther you travel the more unobtainable the challenge typically becomes.

My perspective for you, I stepped on the road at 6 years
old of pursuit of 'grail' guns, I am now 66 and still on the road
and the journey.

I still have my first two 'grail' guns, I never sell off a 'grail' gun.

Hubley 45, and a Matell Fanner '50.

I'm not going to include the list of what followed,
in the following 60 years.

I think I made my point.

Good luck on your journey, it is nothing but enjoyable.

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Yes, the hunt is most of the quest. For years, I wanted a set of 5" .44 Specials. It took me a long time to get there. But I now have a Triple Lock, a 2nd Model, a 3rd model and a M27 converted to .44 Special. I know that the last one isn't a "for real" .44 Special, built in Springfield, but it was my first .44. I had it converted in 1976 and I have it the longest of all of my handguns.

Always set new goals. Right now, I wish to shoot more with the ones I have. I still look for new toys though.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My Grail gun is a Baby Chief's Special King Super Police Night Sight with Ropers.

Pretty sure it doesn't exist. For it to exist it would take a king employee having the proper parts after King was probably not doing that job any more (or at that point it may not have been King, it may have been Ricky) that would have done it. The Ropers also, if they were the correct ones being Gagne made, would probably have been made for another gun and added to this gun later.

That's my grail gun.

It probably doesn't exist, but it *could*. If it doesn't, some day, when I have more money, I may have it made.

Looks like you ‘ve been reading diary..l I seldom use the term, “grail gun,” but that is way up there on my want list.

Froggie

The hunt is what it's all about.

Oh, the grail guns do exist and they are out there. My problem is that my grail guns are also way over my budget. I just can't afford them.

If the term, "grail gun" means the gun that ends all searching and provides ultimate satisfaction, I absolutely do not believe such a thing exists.

On the other hand, this comes close:






Curl

The "grail" gun is a different model and type to different people at different times. It is an "illusion" created by hype, history, time and desire.

And then, some of us are older than that particular "grail" gun, itself, buying it way back when before it became collectible by others.

One of my "grail" guns would be Clark Gable's Registered Magnum. Don't ask me why "his" RM meant more than any other one but note a recent auction on Gary Cooper's RM that sold a few months back.

I had been on the hunt since 1990 before the internet existed, research and detective works by phone calls and letters ... when letters meant a formal typed (not printed with a word processor or computer program) on a proper letterhead, appropriately addressed, sent U.S. Mail (stamp on the envelope and all). All the outlets to purchase were in printed material, annual subscriptions to the top 10 publications, personal contacts with "specialty" dealers (Like Ray Brazille & Harrison Carroll, RIP both). It would not be uncommon to offer a high end collectible dealer a commission or finders fee on a certain gun you were searching for, like I did with Ray Brazille on Clark Gables RM. He found it, but the owner did not want to part with it.

I did find it several years later in a private collection with the owner having no plans to sell it. In fact he had not even answered so I applied to other members of the S&WCA for personal references and contacts.

It popped up again, just a few years ago, in the NRA Museum.

Another were a set of Clayton Moore's twin Colt SAAs and his rig. One set popped up shortly after his death. It was a set of Colts he purchased years after the TV Series and Theater Releases. (Not the later custom made Colts, years later LR-1 and LR-2 and not those of the many made for or had made for John Hart. I let it go after $25K on the original auction with no regrets.

Along the way it happened that I either intentionally found (by search), tripped over (by accident) or just found their way to me by some other means S&Ws like New Model 3 Target 44's in pristine condition. 4 in 44 Russian with 6 inch barrels and 2 with 8" barrels, then came along the grail of grails, a New Model 3 Target chambered in .45S&W Schofield. (1 of 2 known to exist). I had an ad running in GunList for several years as did Ray Brazille (much larger ad) and Gary Garbrecht also advertised first for RMs, then early 44 Magnums, then Model 3s. Gary created the world's first shortage of Model 3s, single handedly.

Then offered a 4", 44 Special Target, custom order by Emerson Axe that before the S&WHF documents were digitized, lettered as a .45. When the shipping order was found, it confirmed it was delivered in .44 Special (not .45 as formerly thought .... but I would have not complained if it was shipped in .45 Long Colt ... just so you guys know I'm not being a greedy fanatic over it)

Years back I purchased a NIB, 1930s SN 1905/4th change in factory experimental "Chrome" finish. With deep research I found there were a few more, a VERY FEW more. I knew of the ownership change on one of those. When that Gent passed, it showed up at a lesser auction. I had last seen it about 10 years prior. It was about 98% then, so I hoped it had not been improperly stored or boogered since I last saw it. Few dealers and collectors knew about the "Chrome" guns but even less knew if they were genuine or they were original or done later by Joe's Bumper shop". One other person, a dealer, surmised it was righteous piece. I out bid the living daylights out of everyone else, because of prior research on that exact serial number. There are 3, 6" 1905/4th in chrome account for out of approximately 30 shipped in 1960 (of a 1930s test production that sat in the vault as S&W until 1960). There are a few others in 4 and 5" barrels.scatted in different SN ranges that had been found in circulation, thus not pristine but scarce enough that it didn't matter, they were "nice enough".

A few years back, an American 6" SN 17xx in 90% original condition having a vent hole barrel (200 number higher then the formerly accepted highest SN of a vent hole barrel American and blessed by Charlie Pate as correct).

A few months after a Claus Willig engraved and gold inlaid .38-44 OD vintage 1951 at a local auction (also a 1980 Baccarat bottle of Louis XIII cognac at that same auction that few knew how to determine if still "good" or if genuine).

A couple of months back I "tripped" over an early post war K-38 "One-liner" (Made in U.S.A.) which there were only 11 recorded found until this one made it 12. I glanced over it at least a dozen times prior to think "nothing special", as likely anyone else that saw it thought likewise. It was that 5th screw that caught my eye glancing it over the 13th time and that one-line address that I had not even seen prior because I kept overlooking it, dismissing it as anything speical once I saw the 1970s vintage stocks on it.

In short, there is NO shortage of grail guns ... depending upon your sole interpretation of what a "grail gun" truly is to you.

To some a "grail gun" stops being a grail gun when it goes over $5,000.00. Other guys have to find it in the general population at a song of a price for it to be a grail. HOWEVER, there are guys ... when the find what they truly want, just plop down the cash and keep smiling, one of those sorts was Gary Garbrecht (RIP). Gary paid fantastic prices for those he truly wanted without flinching an eye and "if" (or when) sold ... even while I'm thinking they could NEVER be worth more than he paid ... he sold them for another "Ripley's Believe it or Not, World's Record"

Think of the members here that have the nicest of the nice collections of scarce production, one-offs, or truly special S&Ws. It did not come to any of those collectors all at once and not without much sacrifice, unshakable determination, and piles of money over the past 20 to 50 years. It takes lots of time (decades), patience of a Saint and (usually) piles of money. That's it !

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I always figured there was no such thing because once you find the mythical grail gun, there is no reason to ever get another gun and you can get rid of all those others.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

...one gun that I REALLY want, something else takes its place.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I have no idea what you are talking about:

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

My grail guns have all been Parkers.

So far, I’ve found them all.

Charlie:

Those three S&Ws that you posted are quite the stunners!!! I would also say that as soon as I find and purchase a "grail gun" I always seem to be able to find one or two more to take their place on the "grail list". "Just one more..." is the oft repeated justification of a S&W addict...



... while you're at it, you might as well get it class A engraved...

This pre-10 M&P, sold at auction in 2009 to someone other than me, is pretty close to the K-frame version of what you're looking for, including: the "smaller" trigger guard Roper Grips, what looks like the King Super Police mods, and as a bonus - it is engraved. Here is a link to the auction: *FINE ARNOLD GREIBEL ENGRAVED SMITH & WESSON PRE-MODEL 10 DA REVOLVER.

Photos from the auction:





Although not a fan of Fitzed trigger guards, nor polished hammers, this "grail gun" does in fact exist and it is on my covet list...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen nearly that exact gun here. Mike Priwer I think. As you know...they’re out there!

I’ll take a King Super Target on a 5.5” Triple Lock .45 Colt reverse pinto with Birdseye Maple Ropers...?

Recently I was talking with a Bigfoot.
He said that he had never actually seen a Unicorn.
But he believed that they existed and was looking.
I told him it wouldn’t hurt if he sat a while in a hot spring.
This was up the Jemez, lots of hot springs up there.
He smelled worse than fermented Catfish bait.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I hear you. Ever since seeing I think it was D.B. Wesson's RM with Kearsarge stocks I've dreamed about it.

The thing I want to say though is about that Gary Cooper RM. I can't imagine having paid what that went for with that sketchy provenance. It really didn't seem rock solid, I was surprised it went for what it did.

The Fitzing, Engraving, Trigger Shoe, and Jeweling just ruin this gun for me.

A King super police night sight gun is a working gun. That thing was made to sit in a safe, or made to sit in a safe. I don't know.

The more I looked at that gun when it came up (which, I will admit, started off with a lot of lust in my heart), the more I grew to dislike it. It's...wrong. It's not what it should be.

I know I'm probably the weird one but the only thing that particular gun actually does for me is to stoke the fire of hope in my heart that I will eventually find a pre-war M&P 2" that King did that sight job to. It's a sight job I just adore. It's not like it's especially valuable, but I just find that I love it a lot on my one gun with both front/rear super police, and my other gun with rear super police.

I named the pair "Fratelli Gemelli Volcanico Raimondi" for my twin sons.

When my twin sons were born in 1994, I began a "Identical Pair" and "consecutive number" binge. Not for anything new and not for anything common.

I owned the one on bottom since appx 1995 and the other a few years later ... long before a World's Record "Believe it or Not" Auction Sale price of $143,000 in December 2007, at a "Famous Large" auction house. Another one of the "Believe it or Nots" that I still can not reason with nor believe.

The second one (top) found its way to me from a retired Florida Sheriff. a Southerner with roots 100 years prior to Civil War. He and I tried to connect this Volcanic to the Confederate officer that owned it but were not able to document it past GrandMa's words to him when he was a child.

The New Haven offered in that December 2007 Auction was the identical model as both shown. It was engraved (as both shown) however, it did not have any remnants of the Silver finish. It was marketed as a no finish (from the factory) gun. It also had a part of (or the entire) lower section of what was presented to be the original 1856-ish unmarked box (seemed an old faux marble finish pressed cardboard).

As I had never encountered a New Haven Arms Volcanic that was engraved but not Silver finished (it always leaves some evidence somewhere even if all the exterior silver is gone).

When I wrote the Auction House to inquire, asking for photos with the stocks removed and a picture of the internals (very easy process) ... I did not get a polite reply.

In this vintage, the silver plating over the brass frames was very soft as compared to newer finishes. Over the years the silver on these would either flake off (sometimes as it never existed) or would start to wear in a fashion that us old Auto Restoration / Refinisher guys call "feather-edge", as exemplified on both of mine. The silver is "Feathering" back having quite nice percentage of silver coverage intact.

A light polish or a jewelers cloth on this would feather edge further taking off more silver, so, it gets only wiped with a soft cotton lint cloth, wrapped dry in light weight (soft) VCI Corrosion prevention paper back into a heated / dry environment.

Attached Images

Fratelli Gemelli Volcanico Raimondi-Cropped.jpg (78.3 KB, 28 views)

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Thanks to all who posted responses to my grail thread yesterday. I started it in jest (my old class clown days just never go away), but after seeing the absolutely stunning guns in the responses, I have some additional thoughts. I will never be in the class of "serious" collectors, like Sal & co. simply because the "piles of money thing" but I can let Sal & co. do my dreaming...thanks to this Forum.

I 100% agree with others who say the "next one" is the grail gun......I get great pleasure just stopping in sometime at LGS and being the ONLY guy at the far end of the long...long...long counter of handguns because there in a little 4 foot long display are the ONLY revolvers, and very few S & W's, but the Owner is a recognized contributor to Richard & Jim's SCSW 4th so he has always got some real treasures in the huge safe located in the back room AND he has drool napkins for my use when occasionally viewing!

So what I'm thinking is we need all new "Classes" of Collectors. Some thing like "Serious"; "Semi-Serious"; "Wannabe Serious"; "Class A Accumulators, Class B, etc."; right down to the Folks like me......just plain nuts and can't explain a thing.

Come to think about it.........this Forum already has all the types and more....so we all are probably either full time or part time "Grail Hunters"!

Again....thanks to all for posting some absolutely stunning guns and stories.....keep them coming as that what "ropes in the newbies".....it sure did to me.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

You fail to see the forest my friend. The true purpose of any good forum is to continually move the goal posts. "Handejector" is an insidious rascal--like a Leprechaun with a rainbow.

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Randy
Provenance nerd

Yes... but do you like the Ropers or the front sight...

I have a bit of a different take. My guess is that this was a working gun at some point in its life and the Super Police mods, the bobbing of the hammer, and the Fitz-ing of the trigger guard were done long before it was engraved. All were period modifications that appear to have been performed by competent gunsmiths.

I love the pristine from the factory guns, but I also love well-used and well-modified guns, even if I would not have commissioned the particular modification.

The owner probably decided to commemorate some milestone in his life by having a gun engraved. Perhaps he no longer carried this little guy - he'd purchased one of those 1950 357's, or that new K-Frame Combat Magnum, or maybe even a 44 Mag. that were all the rage in the 1950s. So, he sent this past favorite off to Arnold Griebel for some retirement decoration. I love the engraving on that beauty! Also, whose to say that engraved guns cannot be shot and carried - I just had a 3" Model 13 shooter engraved and I plan on it continuing to be a "shooter", carried in a holster and in my rotation of guns that I shoot.

The thing that makes me really happy is that all of us collectors do not think alike - we all like things just a bit different and oft times the grail guns that each of us want are something different.

BTW - your 45 Super Police is one of my all time favorites and finding one like it would make room for another "grail gun" to move onto my list!!!

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Grail guns are like rabbits. In the beginning, there was only one.

Then, and nobody knows how or why, there was another one.

And after that, WATCH OUT!!

Ralph Tremaine

Sometimes, ya jest got to build yur own.........





Er.........





.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I'm a simple man with simple tastes.

I have no money for buying guns--had to sell one to afford cataract surgery--but if I did, my first choice would be easy. It would be nice clean, mechanically sound Model 64 with a four-inch standard barrel. Next choice would be a LNIB Detective Special 2. Third, though I haven't been physically able to hunt for years, a clean 1950's vintage Ithaca 37 twelve gauge, 26" Improved Cylinder. That one would a sentimental pick. My late brother had one that had been owned by his father-in-law. His daughter has it now, and shoots it.

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Oh well, what the hell.

My safe is over flowing with grail guns. There's always one or 2 more still out there though