Is this a "pre victory model"?

[Medic43]

Hey everyone, first time poster here, I’m new to old school revolvers and have been getting the itch. So here it goes. What the hell do I have here?

Is this a “pre model” 10 or 38 special military and police? Are they the same thing? My buddy told me this to be a “pre victory model” but I honestly don’t know.

The numbers match on the bottom of the barrel, bottom of the butt and on the cylinder. However, the numbers on the inside of the crane are different but they match each other.

Also, what is the stamp on the back of the frame with the “U and Arrow”, my buddy swears they are a British proof, but I cannot find any other British proof marks on the gun. From my limited research they are South African Proof Marks but to be honest I don’t know. I know the frame has some “love and patina” but the barrel is fantastic. I picked this up for 400 chicken legs out the door.

Does the proof mark on the back make this shall I say “uncommon” and does it add any value to it.

Thank you all so much for looking into this, looking forward to getting some answers.

It is a 6 digit SN 6958XX

[murphydog]

Welcome! Interesting revolver...

It is a .38 Military & Police from about 1940.

The matching serial number stamped on the rear cylinder face and barrel flat near the extractor rod shows it was originally a .38 Special. it is unlikely to have been sold overseas, as the vast majority of those were in .38 S & W caliber.

I have seen another gun with the U stamped on the backstrap but cannot recall any details about it.

Generally I think of "pre-Victory Models" as guns that look the same as a VM (dull gray sandblast finish, smooth stocks, butt swivel) but with a late six-digit, non-V prefix serial number.

At that time nearly all handguns were going to military, defense related and law enforcement destinations. A letter of authenticity from the S & W Historical Foundation may give interesting information about it.

[chiefdave]

That is indeed a proper South African proof mark but Pate's book shows none shipped in 38 Spl.
The following were all shipped in 38-200 cal.

2/19/40 8,800 units with 4" barrel
9/9/40 5,047 units with 4" barrel
6/10/41 7,500 units with 5" barrel

Your revolver in 38 special is something a little different.

[Medic43]

Thank you both for the prompt response I appreciate it. Hopefully I found the preverbal Daimond in the rough and maybe something rare. But with these old revolvers I guess anything is possible.

[AlHunt]

Threads like this are one of the reasons this forum is so much fun. I love watching you guys chew these things to pieces while you ferret out every last detail of the gun in question.

I have popcorn in the microwave.

[Medic43]

I'll see your popcorn and raise ya a beer......

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by chiefdave

That is indeed a proper South African proof mark but Pate's book shows none shipped in 38 Spl.
The following were all shipped in 38-200 cal.

2/19/40 8,800 units with 4" barrel
9/9/40 5,047 units with 4" barrel
6/10/41 7,500 units with 5" barrel

Your revolver in 38 special is something a little different.

Unless the .38 Special cylinder was later rechambered to .38 S&W. Some .38 Special revolvers were converted that way for British use, but I don't know if any of the South African orders were. It would have been very simple to do. It should be easily seen. Some consider that the term "pre-Victory" should apply only to M&Ps without the V SN prefix that saw military service, not guns made for civilian sale.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Unless the .38 Special cylinder was later rechambered to .38 S&W. Some .38 Special revolvers were converted that way for British use, but I don't know if any of the South African orders were. It would have been very simple to do. It should be easily seen. Some consider that the term "pre-Victory" should apply only to M&Ps without the V SN prefix that saw military service, not guns made for civilian sale.

I did not shoot it yet but it chambered a 38 special just fine.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Medic43

I did not shoot it yet but it chambered a 38 special just fine.

It would. The .38 S&W has a slightly larger case diameter than the .38 Special. All that would be required to modify a .38 Special chamber to .38 S&W would be to run a .38 S&W chambering reamer into the .38 Special chambers. You should be able to see a slight shoulder. Another test would be to see if a .38 S&W cartridge can be chambered. If not, the .38 Special chambers have probably not been modified.

[Engine49guy]

Your M&P likely began life chambered in .38 SW,
The tell tale sign that the barrel was swapped is the modern front site, except for target models pre war , wartime and early post war M&P's had the round "half penny" front sight, if your cylinder serial matches my bet is it was bored out to accept the longer .38 Special cases, bad news is the .38 S&W cartridge is slightly larger in diamater , the end result will be that your .38 special cases will expand or even split and be difficult to extract,
Save a few fired cases and try to insert them in another .38 or .357, if they expand they probably wont drop into another gun.

[Wiregrassguy]

The barrel caliber is .38 S&W Special. So, it is a .38 M&P, not a BSR or Victory.

[raljr1]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Unless the .38 Special cylinder was later rechambered to .38 S&W. Some .38 Special revolvers were converted that way for British use, but I don't know if any of the South African orders were. It would have been very simple to do. It should be easily seen. Some consider that the term "pre-Victory" should apply only to M&Ps without the V SN prefix that saw military service, not guns made for civilian sale.

His barrel is stamped 38 S&W Special.

Here is my pre Victory model or BSR, I think, depending on who names it. Commercial blued finish. 38 S&W with 38/200 stamp.

S&W British Svc Revolver (3).jpg

S&W British Svc Revolver (4).jpg


S&W British Svc Revolver (8).jpg

S&W British Svc Revolver (7).jpg

[DWalt]

There are multiple possibilities. First thing to check is to determine if the SN of the barrel matches that on the frame and on the rear face of the cylinder. If so, it left the factory as a .38 Special M&P. If not, the barrel has been replaced, and the revolver originally left the factory as a BSR .38 S&W, and later had the .38 S&W chambers elongated to accept .38 Special. With that front sight, the barrel is not likely to be original.

[Medic43]

Like I said the barrel, Frame, and Cylinder are all matching serial numbers.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

Your M&P likely began life chambered in .38 SW,
The tell tale sign that the barrel was swapped is the modern front site, except for target models pre war , wartime and early post war M&P's had the round "half penny" front sight, if your cylinder serial matches my bet is it was bored out to accept the longer .38 Special cases, bad news is the .38 S&W cartridge is slightly larger in diamater , the end result will be that your .38 special cases will expand or even split and be difficult to extract,
Save a few fired cases and try to insert them in another .38 or .357, if they expand they probably wont drop into another gun.

You gentleman know a lot more about this than I do but the barrel serial number matches the cylinder and the frame. So I dont think the barrel was swapped.

[DWalt]

Is there a star stamped near the SN on the barrel?

[Muley Gil]

Looks like a straight ejector rod.

Medic43, can you post a close-up of the front sight and the markings under the barrel?

[Engine49guy]

While I'm no M&P expert the lack of V , SV or S prefix , lanyard loop and long action hammer was leading me to believe this was made prior to the the US entering the war but they hadn't invented that front site yet,
IIR those came in about the time that the short action did, the high shoulder stocks are early post war like 1946 - 1951ish,
If you remove the right stock is there a serial stamped inside and if so does it match your gun?
Perhaps this went back to the factory and was rebuilt.
Just want to ad that the back of the hammer under the spur says "Reg US Pat", that hammer marking is gone by the post war S serial guns IIRC, Will have to pull my 1946 M&P to confirm but I do know my 1939-40 has it

[DWalt]

I noticed the same thing about the extractor rod, but the pictures were not good enough for me to make a good determination. And certainly the grips are postwar. That front sight style is probably early 1950s.or later. Everything points to its being a possible factory rebuild on an older frame. That is why I mentioned the star stamp. Also might check to see if there is a date stamp on the grip frame.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Is there a star stamped near the SN on the barrel?

Nope no star on the barrel just a B inside of a square.

[Medic43]

No star under the barrel just a B inside a box next to the serial number.

[Medic43]

Will get more pictures later on today.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by DWalt

I noticed the same thing about the extractor rod, but the pictures were not good enough for me to make a good determination. And certainly the grips are postwar. That front sight style is probably early 1950s.or later. Everything points to its being a possible factory rebuild on an older frame. That is why I mentioned the star stamp. Also might check to see if there is a date stamp on the grip frame.

Hope these help.

[DWalt]

Appears the revolver went back to the factory for service in October 1954. Front sight indicates the barrel could be a replacement from that period and numbered by the factory. Grips are probably from a later M&P C series revolver. Cylinder could also be a replacement. My best guess is that the original revolver was one of the South African BSRs, and the frame was later fitted by S&W with a .38 Special barrel and cylinder. Extractor rod has knurled tip and is definitely post-1947. Any other guesses?

[sigp220.45]

FWIW, here is my South African lettered gun. The lanyard hole had been plugged and it was wearing some K frame Targets, but otherwise unchanged. No proof or import marks at all.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Appears the revolver went back to the factory for service in October 1954. Front sight indicates the barrel could be a replacement from that period and numbered by the factory. Grips are probably from a later M&P C series revolver. Cylinder could also be a replacement. My best guess is that the original revolver was one of the South African BSRs, and the frame was later fitted by S&W with a .38 Special barrel and cylinder. Extractor rod has knurled tip and is definitely post-1947. Any other guesses?

Sweet man, I appreciate you in educating me on the manor. I Love these old guns always something new to learn.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

FWIW, here is my South African lettered gun. The lanyard hole had been plugged and it was wearing some K frame Targets, but otherwise unchanged. No proof or import marks at all.

Any rate i'm going to pay the money and send in for the providence letter to the Smith and Wesson Historical foundation just to have the paperwork. I think that is so cool. I absolutely nerd out at old guns like this.

[Medic43]

First 12 shots single action @ 7 yards....She is a keeper. Put a couple boxes of .38 special both single action and double action with no issues.

Thank you all again for the history info on this.

[AlHunt]

So, a nice gun, likely an interesting back story, not a white glove safe queen and no boutique caliber. Good score, I think.

Probably not "worth" a $100 letter, in that it won't be worth a hundred bucks more, but why not confirm it for not much more than a tank of gas? Then you might score the invoice where it was rebuilt in 1954. It still won't be worth a hundred bucks more, but it'll be so much more interesting.

Besides, it's not my money, so spend away!

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by AlHunt

So, a nice gun, likely an interesting back story, not a white glove safe queen and no boutique caliber. Good score, I think.

Probably not "worth" a $100 letter, in that it won't be worth a hundred bucks more, but why not confirm it for not much more than a tank of gas? Then you might score the invoice where it was rebuilt in 1954. It still won't be worth a hundred bucks more, but it'll be so much more interesting.

Besides, it's not my money, so spend away!

I agree whole heartedly, it's not necessary the money value I just really enjoy the research and historical aspect. Plus, it will make for a cool story.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by Medic43

I agree whole heartedly, it's not necessary the money value I just really enjoy the research and historical aspect.

That is precisely what steers the direction of my own accumulation......Ben

[DWalt]

If you do order a letter, you might post it here just to close the circle. Interesting that a previous owner would go through the trouble to rebuild a BSR when he probably could have bought a nice condition used .38 Special M&P cheaper.

[Medic43]

Originally Posted by DWalt

If you do order a letter, you might post it here just to close the circle. Interesting that a previous owner would go through the trouble to rebuild a BSR when he probably could have bought a nice condition used .38 Special M&P cheaper.

Interesting enough I did find some one that posted about a BSA revolver back in 2012 (which had not been altered) and per the Smith and Wesson letter some revolvers were bought back to be used as government surplus and converted post war to the more popular .38 special.

Now I know we can beat this to death but I’m hoping that this gun was one of them. It would be really cool. Either way I will send off my stuff this Tuesday and when the letter comes back I will tag this post. Thank you again.