1905 serial# vs Patent dates

Doubles · Jun 20, 2020

I apologize in advance for my ignorance here ... my 1905 has a serial# which puts it clearly at a 1909 manufacture date (146xxx), yet the stamping on the barrel shows a patent fate as late as Dec.29.14 !

I’ll post a picture. Clearly there is something I’m missing. What wisdom can you share with me? Thx.

Absalom · Jun 20, 2020

First step: Make sure you are not overlooking a letter prefix.

Then check the serial on the flat underside of the barrel against the serial on the bottom of the butt. They should match.

PS: And post more pictures. Sides of the barrel, butt, and entire gun

glowe · Jun 20, 2020

The use of patent dates on S&W revolvers ended around 1948, so there could be a prefix on a gun with the 1914 patent date like a "V" for Victory Model. The OP needs to re-check the serial number, look on the barrel flat as Absolom suggests and look at the rear of the cylinder for the serial number there.

Also, look for a star on the butt or a 3 or 4 number sequence under the left stock on the butt-frame. That would indicate the month and year for a factory return.

Doubles · Jun 20, 2020

Barrel must be a replacement

Serial# is legit. No prefix.

Doubles · Jun 20, 2020

Nother pic

Here’s another ...

Oyeboteb · Jun 20, 2020

Doubles said:
Serial# is legit. No prefix.

See if the Serial Number is present on the face of the Cylinder, rear face of the Cylinder.

Number on Butt has been partially obliterated with missing digits, and I see no number at all on the underside Barrel Flat...is there one there?

This is a refinished Revolver also.

JP@AK · Jun 20, 2020

Pics tell the story. This is a Frankengun.

First, the thing has been seriously refinished, but the job was not done well.

Second, that barrel and frame are from completely different eras. In fact, I'm not sure how that extractor rod knob even fits under the barrel. The machined notch is the type used after the knob shape changed in c. 1927.

Also note the absence of a serial number on the barrel flat. That barrel should have a number in that location, but it would not match the one on the butt. Makes you wonder what number is on the cylinder and yoke.

Based on the picture, I don't see how you can even interpret what is on the butt. There is a swivel hole drilled and I do not even see a complete serial number.

Anyway, the best one can say about this revolver is that it is a plinker/shooter. Treat it for what it is, and be done. "It shore ain't old Uncle Joe's collectible."

Oh, and by the way, that swivel hole is in the wrong place - hence, not a factory installation.

Oyeboteb · Jun 20, 2020

Doubles said:
I apologize in advance for my ignorance here ... my 1905 has a serial# which puts it clearly at a 1909 manufacture date (146xxx), yet the stamping on the barrel shows a patent fate as late as Dec.29.14 !

I’ll post a picture. Clearly there is something I’m missing. What wisdom can you share with me? Thx.

Where are you finding the "146xxx" Number?

What's left of the Serial Number on the Butt, looks like it begins with a 4.

Looks like "4 3 ( missing ) 7 9 3"

But the 7 9 3 look like a different Font from the first two characters.

Doubles · Jun 20, 2020

My photography is poor. The number on the butt is the same number that’s on the cylinder, but that’s not all that relevant. It’s a faker. Good to know. Thanks guys.

Doubles · Jun 21, 2020

Summary

In response to some questions ... this piece was not purchased as a collectible. It was bought as a shooter. I believe the frame and the cylinder are original 1909 manufacture. The barrel is clearly a replacement, and while that may upset the Collectors among us it enhances it as a shooter. The underside of the barrel has clearly been ground to except the button style ejector rod of the 1905. I was aware that the revolver has been touched up with what I believe to be cold blue in certain areas (in order to prevent further deterioration?). I only hope that my frame and moving parts look that good when I’m 111 years old.

My appreciation to you folks for your collective wisdom.

glowe · Jun 21, 2020

Heavy buffing can remove numbers, but as guessed the barrel is nor original. The proof that the barrel is not original is not that it was "ground", since all early M&P barrels were machined with a slot, but rather it is that all barrels made for the mushroom shaped extractor rod knob has a two step cut notch in the barrel. The post 1927 knob was barrel shaped and only required a single cut. The gun was caustic blued after heavy buffing, including the hammer and trigger which left the factory case colored.

The question I originally asked and has been repeated several times is what is stamped on the back of the cylinder?

The gun also has what looks like pitting on the right side of the frame where the company started stamping MADE IN USA in 1922, but I do not believe that that gun had been stamped, so it is pre-1922.

We still have not figured out how you know the serial number and age, but perhaps the biggest issue here is that the gun is illegal by BATF regulations. The official serial number location for S&W is the stamped number on the butt frame and that number has been defaced, which can cause big issues if ever stopped by law enforcement or sold down the road.

DWalt · Jun 21, 2020

Yes, as the original SN on the butt has been defaced, it is an illegal gun by BATFE regulations. So it would have no value to anyone other than you. No dealer would touch it.

rct269 · Jun 21, 2020

Actually, we have figured out how the date of manufacture was determined----if you don't get too picky about it---and/or say unkind or disrespectful things about the origin/methodology involved. N&J (and very likely any and all other reference works which came along afterwards) note the serial number beginning the "second change"---essentially the same number noted for the beginning of the "third change". The date is also noted------along with the admonition to "(see text)". So much for the date of manufacture----which might be regarded as "close enough".

As an aside, whenever you see such phrases as "(see text)", you know there's some required reading suggested so as to enhance one's understanding of the topic at hand. The terms "cop-out clause" and "weasel words" have been known to be used as substitutes, but now we're getting into the unkind and disrespectful descriptions. It's worth noting that completing the suggested required reading may or may not enhance one's understanding. The term "as clear as mud" is sometimes employed to describe one's failure to enhance one's understanding.

Got all that?

Ralph Tremaine

Muley Gil · Jun 21, 2020

On occasion, S&W would receive an order for a revolver equipped with a lanyard loop. If they didn't have a frame that hadn't yet been stamped with a serial number, the factory would drill through the serial number and re-stamp the SN on the bottom side of the grip frame.

If your revolver has the SN in that location, it is legal.

glowe · Jun 21, 2020

Doubles said:
My photography is poor. The number on the butt is the same number that’s on the cylinder, but that’s not all that relevant. It’s a faker. Good to know. Thanks guys.

Ralph, my point was that the OP has not given what he thinks is the full serial number and the first number on the butt looks a lot more like a 4 than a 1? No big deal, but how can one say the serial number on the cylinder is the same as the butt when the butt has missing numbers? Even when you enlarge the numbers that are there, they are still odd looking?

We want to help the OP with what he has and furnish correct information and share our wisdom about the gun, but there are still questions?

1905 serial# vs Patent dates

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