New Gun Day! 1952 K38

[Jmg11986]

Hi all!

New member/first post! I picked this guy up and called the factory to get a date for it. They told me 1952. What can you guys tell me about it!? I paid $495 for it.....did I do alright? Here are some pics!

1952 K38 Combat Masterpiece - Album on Imgur

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That's a beautiful gun! Congratulations!

Guy

[daddio202]

Welcome to the forum! You did great on that beauy! They are wonderful and very accurate revolvers. The only problem with your gun is....... it's a lot like potatoe chips, very hard to stop at just one!

[Glashaus]

Hello and welcome to the Forum! You did real well, that is a super nice Combat Masterpiece!

[Farmer17]

You done good!

[Mrnurse]

Factory finish, stocks look fine... Yea ill give you $495.00.

[H Richard]

Super nice. The early 50's time period is my favorite time. Just seems to be the time of high quality fit and finish. You got a good one!

[OldChief]

How did you do? That's what I call a Jesse James deal - Were you wearing your mask? Great score!

[Jmg11986]

Originally Posted by OldChief

How did you do? That's what I call a Jesse James deal - Were you wearing your mask? Great score!

Ha, I guess I got lucky? What do you all think this thing is worth?

[Igiveup]

I can't guess the value, as there are geographical differences, but that is my favorite revolver and I would gladly give you your money back.

[LPD256]

Great looking gun. I have a 1952 K22 Combat Masterpiece. My birthday gun. Enjoy yours.

[jjfitch]

I was able to to get a "Jesse James" deal a few years ago on a 52' Target Masterpiece in similar condition in the original box and sales receipt.

Prices in my neighborhood are in the $700 range!

Smiles,

[bigmoose]

That is one nice Smith! It’s not often you see one photographed with rounds in the cylinder, but as a friend of mine likes to say “what good is an unloaded gun?”
Congrats on an excellent purchase.

[NavySCPO]

That is one beautiful combat masterpiece! At that price and in that condition, I’d say with this group we would be lined up around the block to buy one.

Congratulations, nice revolver!

[mh51]

I'd say you did fantastic! Just be sure that loaded gun doesn't go off by itself.....I hear they're bad about that.

[Jmg11986]

Originally Posted by mh51

I'd say you did fantastic! Just be sure that loaded gun doesn't go off by itself.....I hear they're bad about that.

Don’t worry, those are empty shells. I ran out of snap caps

[BigBill]

Nice find, I think the going rate is $100 more.
I found a k22 target, a k38 Target and a combat masterpiece from the same seller who traded them in. They had reddish orange freckling that turned out to be dried oil. The combat has the smoothest action.

[Jmg11986]

Anybody have a lead on where I can find a box for this thing? I noticed the old gold boxes aren’t serial numbers matched to guns so I figured it would be cool to get one

[Waveski]

That gun for that price would have caused me to stop what I was doing and pounce.
You did very well. If you were to share the part about how you came to acquire a fine example of the greatest revolver of all time , I'm sure that I would not be alone in my interest.

Welcome - nice debut.
(You might want to post images of the beauty directly on a page here...)

[moosedog]

A beautiful, original Combat Masterpiece.
Yes, the gold boxes are numbered with a grease pen on the bottom of the box.

[Jmg11986]

Originally Posted by Waveski

That gun for that price would have caused me to stop what I was doing and pounce.
You did very well. If you were to share the part about how you came to acquire a fine example of the greatest revolver of all time , I'm sure that I would not be alone in my interest.

Welcome - nice debut.
(You might want to post images of the beauty directly on a page here...)

Here are some pics uploaded






Edit: Hmmm having trouble here. Any tips? I’m using the link and pasting it in the picture tab

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Originally Posted by LPD256

Great looking gun. I have a 1952 K22 Combat Masterpiece. My birthday gun. Enjoy yours.

If I could find that same package in a 1954 year build I would be very happy! Nice buy, enjoy!

[OLDSTER]

Originally Posted by Glashaus

Hello and welcome to the Forum! You did real well, that is a super nice Combat Masterpiece!

Welcome. Not to sound like a snoot; but the K38 designation is not correct. As posted by Glashaus , that beauty is a Combat Masterpiece ( 1949); to become the Model 15, in 1957. The K38 is the 6" Target Masterpiece (1947); to become the Model 14 in 1957. You've got a beauty there.

[NavySCPO]

Originally Posted by OLDSTER

Welcome. Not to sound like a snoot; but the K38 designation is not correct. As posted by Glashaus , that beauty is a Combat Masterpiece ( 1949); to become the Model 15, in 1957. The K38 is the 6" Target Masterpiece (1947); to become the Model 14 in 1957. You've got a beauty there.

A bit confused...I thought the Masterpiece and the Combat Masterpiece were both referred to as K38. One of my letters from Roy seem to indicate that also. He even referred to my 5” as a K38 Special Masterpiece (which I had never read until then).

I’m sure others will chime in and correct me if I’ve misread the letter.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by NavySCPO

A bit confused...I thought the Masterpiece and the Combat Masterpiece were both referred to as K38.

Oh - Oh! That was news to me in another thread. Supica, Hahas SCSW4 refers to K38 Combat Masterpiece and you have shown that Roy calls them the same. Apparently there is some documentation somewhere that clearly shows the opposite, but I have not seen it yet?? All I can find is some marketing & Sales documentation and period catalogs that also show 38 Combat Masterpiece, but it seems that sometimes we choose to use period sales paperwork and sometimes choose not to use information found in the catalogs??

The fact that Roy calls them K38 CMs is interesting. On the other hand, I have a box labeled as a 38 Combat Masterpiece from 1951 covering a standard K38 6" gold box printed label. I guess since it has a K serial number I like to call them K22 and K38 no matter what barrel length they have, but it was pointed out that Combat Magnums are not called K357, so another can of worms to keep open here. What the marketing & sales people did 70 years ago does not always comply with the more modern collector naming convention for some other models, but it is what we now accept as proper names today. Remember that Roy was a very instrumental person in setting the names, change & numbers for many S&Ws and we use his naming convention, not period names from the corporation.

[OldChief]

I sold a real gem here a couple of months ago, on consignment, for $1000.
It wasn't in my friend's showcase for 24 hrs. It was a 1956 model that had just gone through a factory high polish re-bluing. Here's the only picture I have left of it:

[Jmg11986]

Originally Posted by OldChief

I sold a real gem here a couple of months ago, on consignment, for $1000.
It wasn't in my friend's showcase for 24 hrs. It was a 1956 model that had just gone through a factory high polish re-bluing. Here's the only picture I have left of it:

Wow....is that a target masterpiece/pre-model 14?

[glowe]

Originally Posted by OldChief

I sold a real gem here a couple of months ago, on consignment, for $1000.
It wasn't in my friend's showcase for 24 hrs. It was a 1956 model that had just gone through a factory high polish re-bluing. Here's the only picture I have left of it:

Looks brand new! Who made the stocks?

[Wiregrassguy]

Ed,
How did you get the factory to reblue it? They refused to work on my 1959 Model 16 because it was "obsolete."

[Fessor]

I'll say you did fine.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by NavySCPO

One of my letters from Roy seem to indicate that also. He even referred to my 5” as a K38 Special Masterpiece (which I had never read until then).

In Gary's Post #25, he does a good job of laying out the terms of the debate. There is an ongoing discussion over this issue that may never be fully resolved. It is somewhat reminiscent of the Model of 1902 vs. 1905 debate.

Gary's reference to the box labels illustrates one portion of the discussion. The labels would seem to indicate that the whole issue isn't just about the marketing department. That department didn't apply the box labels, nor did it dictate what was printed on them. Personally, I tend to believe marketing was reflecting factory terminology, not the other way around. But we differ on that matter, and that's what makes for healthy debate among those who notice these things.

Now, as to your specific example with reference to your 5" revolver that shipped to Illinois.

There were two LE special orders that came into Springfield in the 1950s. Both requested 5" barrels on the K target frame.

The first one was in 1952 from the Missouri State Highway Patrol. That order was filled with Combat Masterpiece frames fitted to tapered barrels that remained in inventory from the earlier version of the K-38 Masterpiece, which by that time had transitioned to the K-38 Heavy Masterpiece. Those tapered barrels were originally 6" in length. The factory cut them to 5" and affixed Baughman ramp sights to them to complete the Missouri order. These revolvers were sent out in four shipments: June 13, 1952 (50 units); October 3, 1952 (225 units); October 15, 1952 (60 units); and October 13, 1953 (30 units).

The second special order came in 1957, from the Illinois State Police. This order was filled K-38 Masterpiece frames, which differed slightly from the Combat Masterpiece frames in that the top of the front boss of the frame is flat where it meets the barrel. The reason for this is that by the mid-1950s, the K-38 Masterpiece was routinely fitted with the straight barrel rather than the earlier tapered barrel, as I mentioned above. Initially, this variant was called the K-38 Heavy Masterpiece, but by 1957, it was the only game in town. So, the ISP guns were, indeed, K-38 Masterpieces with an unusual 5" barrel. I believe that is why Roy, in your letter, refers to it as a K-38 Special Masterpiece. It was a K-38 Masterpiece that was, indeed, "special." Given when and where your revolver shipped, I have no doubt it is one of the ISP guns. Somewhere I have a list of all those revolvers by serial number. If I can locate it, I can provide certainty that is indeed one of them.

One of the conclusions possible from this example is that it doesn't tell us much about the K-38 Masterpiece vs. .38 Combat Masterpiece debate, because it is a special case.

Just for kicks, here is a picture of one of the MSHP revolvers from my collection. This one shipped in the October 3, 1952 shipment. Compare the barrel profile with your ISP gun and you will see what I'm saying about the difference.

[JP@AK]

Here are two pictures showing the frame difference between the Combat Masterpiece and Heavy Masterpiece.

Combat Masterpiece (notice the side taper on the forward frame bridge)

Heavy Masterpiece


Both of these are actually model marked revolvers. But the difference is the same on the earlier guns from the first half of the 1950s.

[NavySCPO]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

In Gary's Post #25, he does a good job of laying out the terms of the debate. There is an ongoing discussion over this issue that may never be fully resolved. It is somewhat reminiscent of the Model of 1902 vs. 1905 debate.

Gary's reference to the box labels illustrates one portion of the discussion. The labels would seem to indicate that the whole issue isn't just about the marketing department. That department didn't apply the box labels, nor did it dictate what was printed on them. Personally, I tend to believe marketing was reflecting factory terminology, not the other way around. But we differ on that matter, and that's what makes for healthy debate among those who notice these things.

Now, as to your specific example with reference to your 5" revolver that shipped to Illinois.

There were two LE special orders that came into Springfield in the 1950s. Both requested 5" barrels on the K target frame.

The first one was in 1952 from the Missouri State Highway Patrol. That order was filled with Combat Masterpiece frames fitted to tapered barrels that remained in inventory from the earlier version of the K-38 Masterpiece, which by that time had transitioned to the K-38 Heavy Masterpiece. Those tapered barrels were originally 6" in length. The factory cut them to 5" and affixed Baughman ramp sights to them to complete the Missouri order. These revolvers were sent out in four shipments: June 13, 1952 (50 units); October 3, 1952 (225 units); October 15, 1952 (60 units); and October 13, 1953 (30 units).

The second special order came in 1957, from the Illinois State Police. This order was filled K-38 Masterpiece frames, which differed slightly from the Combat Masterpiece frames in that the top of the front boss of the frame is flat where it meets the barrel. The reason for this is that by the mid-1950s, the K-38 Masterpiece was routinely fitted with the straight barrel rather than the earlier tapered barrel, as I mentioned above. Initially, this variant was called the K-38 Heavy Masterpiece, but by 1957, it was the only game in town. So, the ISP guns were, indeed, K-38 Masterpieces with an unusual 5" barrel. I believe that is why Roy, in your letter, refers to it as a K-38 Special Masterpiece. It was a K-38 Masterpiece that was, indeed, "special." Given when and where your revolver shipped, I have no doubt it is one of the ISP guns. Somewhere I have a list of all those revolvers by serial number. If I can locate it, I can provide certainty that is indeed one of them.

One of the conclusions possible from this example is that it doesn't tell us much about the K-38 Masterpiece vs. .38 Combat Masterpiece debate, because it is a special case.

Just for kicks, here is a picture of one of the MSHP revolvers from my collection. This one shipped in the October 3, 1952 shipment. Compare the barrel profile with your ISP gun and you will see what I'm saying about the difference.

Thank you Jack, very informative and a great read on the history of these fine revolvers. The taper is very clear and easy to see for even my old eyes on the earlier MSHP issue. I believe, and my memory is not that clear these days, but I think you or someone else may have already checked my 5”, and I’m sad to say it was not one of the ISP revolvers, be pretty cool to me if it was, but I think it was probably an overrun...even more odd since it was shipped to Fishman’s in Springfield, IL., But then with Smith & Wesson, who’s to say what’s odd.

Just curious, does anyone know if Fishman’s was a distributor for the ISP revolvers, or did they go to a State Armory or similar? Not sure how government arms are ordered, shipped or received.

[Notch8]

Dang! That Combat Masterpiece in the original post looks brand new! $495? I would have been on that in a heartbeat! Yeah, I'd say you did good!

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by NavySCPO

I believe, and my memory is not that clear these days, but I think you or someone else may have already checked my 5”, and I’m sad to say it was not one of the ISP revolvers, be pretty cool to me if it was, but I think it was probably an overrun.

Correct. I just found the list and looked; K303466 is not on it. Interestingly, K303467 and K303468 were ISP units. The ISP guns left the factory in October, 1957, the month prior to your ship date. Clearly, yours was an overrun.

[OldChief]

To answer a couple of questions, first, time really flies and I sort of lost track of it, my K-38 was re-blued in mid 2016. I guess this "just got back" means a few years ago. I had ordered those rosewood grips from S&W quite a while ago for another revolver and had never used them. Also, it's a K38 Target Masterpiece (1956). I should also mention that I hadn't fired it since I had it re-blued. I have another (1956) K38 that I had factory re-blued around the same time. I put a set of Culina targets on this one and plan to pass it on to someone when my times comes.