Moon Baby Thread (Half Moon Chiefs Special)

[quinn]

This was my grail gun for a while until my son spotted in in Tulsa and gave me first shot. According to the research I have been able to do: The Chiefs Special-later to become the Model 36 in 1957- was introduced in 1950 on the "I" frame with a slightly lengthened window for the cylinder. These early models are often referred to as "Baby" Chiefs due to the smaller trigger guard and short grip frame. **See frame designation discussion below. The experts have spoken...the 'baby' chief was designated as a J frame from the very beginning. Apologies for my misunderstanding of the correct nomenclature. Hope we keep getting more info. Thanks for the replies!!

According to SCSW 4 the very earliest shipments had traditional thumb release and rounded front sight.After only a few gun the thumb release was switched to the 'flat latch' version of which there were a couple of variations.

Anecdotally, I have heard that there are as many as a couple of thousand "Moon Babies" with some serial numbers reaching the 3000 mark.

In hopes of gathering more info here is my Moon Baby with particulars:

Serial number 98x which shipped in November, 1951
Half moon front sight
Flat latch (first variation?)
Smooth backstrap and trigger
Unnumbeedr perfectly fitting grips
The red box is not numbered and was obtained with the help of a forum member

Following a quick wardrobe change to Sunday best. The grips are ivory (forum sourced). The holster was a gift from another forum member and is a rare "I" frame SD Myres holster.

I would greatly appreciate other forum member adding their information and babies if possible. Thanks.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I don't have a Chiefs Special to show. Yours looks mighty good. BTW, the Chiefs Special was built on the J frame. It had to be because of the wider window to accommodate the cylinder for the 38 Special. The early J frame had the same grip frame as the improved I frame.

Guy

 

[quinn]

Gary: thanks for the comment about the J frame. Murphydog also brought this up. The references I used called this an "I" frame with a lengthened window for the logger cylinder. This would become the "J" frame a little later. I'm not sure of the correct interpretation here and would welcome further comment on this. That was my hope with this thread. Thanks

 

[delcrossv]

That's a nice Baby, Randy! I have two- just on the lookout for a bright blue one like Bob's

Blue is 6xx, Nickel is 12xx. Nickel letters to Evaluators Inc. in DC- one of 11 in the shipment (see the box). I don't think there's any more that were ordered in Nickel.

 

[Truckman]

That's very close to the one I'm looking for to complete my trifecta, except mine needs a square butt and nickel finish...However this week I found a donor body to go under the knife in the form of a Regulation Police...It supposedly will be shipped tomorrow and when it arrives I'll post pictures and ask recommendations for a surgeon to make the necessary alterations...Negotiations are underway with Patrick Grashorn for matching unbarked stags for all three...

If I was lucky enough to find an affordable example as shown in this thread, I don't think I could have the heart to change anything about it......Ben

 

[delcrossv]

Gary: thanks for the comment about the J frame. Murphydog also brought this up. The references I used called this an "I" frame with a lengthened window for the logger cylinder. This would become the "J" frame a little later. I'm not sure of the correct interpretation here and would welcome further comment on this. That was my hope with this thread. Thanks

I'll defer to Jim (Hondo44), but I recall these being the "improved I frame" but with a lengthened cylinder window. Later, with further mods to the trigger guard, they'd become the J frame.

 

[handejector]

The references I used called this an "I" frame with a lengthened window for the logger cylinder. This would become the "J" frame a little later. I'm not sure of the correct interpretation here and would welcome further comment on this. That was my hope with this thread. Thanks

Use a better reference. Then again, who knows if this guy knows what he is talking about......

 

[quinn]

Thanks Lee. I guess I don't have your cited reference. As the "baby" chiefs are not on the same size frame as the later Chiefs, is the baby on some transitional frame between the tradition I and the full size J? If so what is the most correct designation for this variation?

 

[handejector]

Thanks Lee. I guess I don't have your cited reference. As the "baby" chiefs are not on the same size frame as the later Chiefs, is the baby on some transitional frame between the tradition I and the full size J? If so what is the most correct designation for this variation?

Randy,
Baby Chiefs ARE on the same size frame as later Chiefs. Frame size was always determined by S&W (for HEs anyway, and I think the Top Breaks) by the length of the cylinder window. That is the same for Baby Chiefs and later Chiefs. Butt shape or length and the size of the trigger guard does not change that.
We have always called the early J frames the Baby Chief.

Thanks Lee. I guess I don't have your cited reference.

History of Smith & Wesson 1977 by Roy G. Jinks, Page 224.

 

[murphydog]

I suppose you could call the Baby an early or first type J frame, with the model of 1953 the later and more common type. If anyone asks I just made this up.

 

[delcrossv]

I'm cool with that.

These are kinda "I framy" though- shorter grip frame etc.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Howdy Randy, et al,

S&W’s “Order of 10-23-50” says “MODEL J BLUE Ser. #6,” the first J-frame completed, according to Roy Jinks, was delivered to C.R. Hellstrom on October 27, 1950.

Bill Cross, president of the S&W Historical Foundation, sent this "order" to me.

There were no I-framed Chiefs!

The 57th annual International Association of Chiefs of Police conference convened October 7-12, 1950, in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Jinks said S&W sent a sales force to ask the chiefs to name its new, small, J-frame revolver. Passaic, New Jersey, Chief of Police Edward Boyko submitted the first ballot with the winning name: Chiefs Special.

S&W added its usual caliber prefix, engraved Chief Boyko’s name on .38 Chiefs Special 29, and shipped the Baby Chiefs, as collectors now call them, to him on December 11, 1950.

Danielle Gudakunst, Managing Editor, The Police Chief, the official magazine of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, provided the date of the 1950 IACP conference.

Danielle sent an ad S&W had taken out in The Police Chief magazine in December 1950 that details Chief Boyko’s winning the “name the J-frame” challenge. The ad is included here as a pdf (you have to click on it to open it).

Also attached are photos of my two half-round sighted Chiefs.

S&W shipped serial number 72 to Flora Mason Van Orden, co-owner of Evaluators Limited Gun Shop in Triangle, Virginia, in March 1951. It sports a rare bright blue finish, half-round sight, serial numbered round butt service grips, original thumbpiece, and smooth trigger. Standard 5-screw frame, small knurled hammer, and pinned barrel. (S&W shipped serial number 70 to Flora's husband, George Van Orden.)

S&W shipped serial number 99 in August 1951. It sports a rare 1st style flat latch thumbpiece (only ¼” tall, 11 ridges and squared on the right; 101 has the only other one I’ve seen). Smooth trigger. Standard satin blue finish and hand-fit, serial numbered diamond magna grips.

The last known half-round sight, 11661, an outlier by about 5,600 numbers, shipped in April ‘52.

Hope this helps Randy.

There are others on this forum who could contribute more. I hope they will.

 

[NavySCPO]

Never miss an opportunity to show off my one and only of the Baby Chiefs. Not a round front like that beauty of yours, but a smooth ramp.

Congratulations! Always a great moment when you add one of these fine firearms to you collection, big or small, Enjoy!

 

[JSR III]

The Chief Special is built on a new frame designated by S&W as the "J" frame. The frame is longer to accommodate the longer cylinder and cylinder window. The trigger guard and the grip frame are the same size as the earlier I frame because these features are not affected by the larger cylinder or cylinder window required by the longer .38 S&W Special round.

Since the .38 S&W Special is more powerful than the .38 S&W round, many shooters complained about the size of the trigger guard and grip frame size of this still small firearm. S&W then changed these features by making them both larger.

Since collectors need things all wrapped up in red bows, think of the first J frame Chief Specials (Baby Chiefs) as the J frame and the later ones with the larger trigger guard and grip frame as the Improved J frame.

Since this terminology was used on the predecessor I frames as in the Improved I frame, this should make it easy for collectors to understand.

I suppose S&W could have called this new frame the Improved Improved I frame but that might not have fit on the box end.

 

[Hondo44]

According to SCSW 4 the very earliest shipments had traditional thumb release and rounded front sight.After only a few gun the thumb release was switched to the 'flat latch' version of which there were a couple of variations.

Flat latch (first variation?)

I would greatly appreciate other forum member adding their information and babies if possible. Thanks.

That's a nice one, a little character and not too nice to shoot and enjoy!

You're correct it has the 2nd type latch used on J frames, which is the 1st style flat latch, and only used on this era J frame; not on any of the I frames which began the use of flat latches with the 2nd type flat latch on the Model of 1953 NEW I frame forging. It also introduced the larger, egg shaped trigger guard, 1/8" longer RB grip frame and new SQ butt* grip frame.

The Chiefs Special also introduced the NEW J frame forging in 1953 with the same larger, egg shaped trigger guard, 1/8" longer RB grip frame and new SQ butt grip frame*. I therefore feel it's proper to designate as the Model of 1953 NEW J frame as well as .32 and .38 S&W 1953 NEW I frames. Although you will only find that as an official factory designation for the 1953 I frame .22/32 Kit Gun and .22/32 Target models as printed on the box end and in catalogs of the period.

*NOTE: There are a a few very rare Baby Js with the SQ butt grip frame, but original small trigger guard prior to the 1953 Model ('Toddler' J frames?)

CHIEFS MILESTONE TRANSITION PERIODS:

159X earliest known grooved trigger
2928……earliest observed smooth ramp shipped in February '52
6541…..earliest reported serrated ramp July 1952
116XX…..latest reported round sight, shipped 4/52, albeit a much higher # than most
12743…..highest reported smooth ramp c. mid 1952
21342....Very Rare earliest square butt introduction 1952, still with small round trigger guard
251XX…..Baby J serrated ramp sight, and earliest 2nd style flat latch
290XX…..earliest reported square-butt Chiefs Special Airweight with bug screw, alloy-cylinder, June 24, 1953
30375…..earliest known Rare 3 inch Barrel length, ramp sight shipped July '53
5086x dates to 1954, rare 3” highest known Baby J, has fine knurled early hammer

4989X…..earliest reported Model of 1953 New J frame, a 4 screw, June ‘54
72195 latest 4 screw and latest with early hammer
968XX by about this # (1956), the bright blue finish became standard

 

[Donald Paul]

While unable to add to, or challenge any previous comments about this apparently favorite little guy, I would like to show off my little baby.
By the way Quinn, I like your designation "moon baby", although it's most likely just between only us guys.
So, here's a few photos of mine {again}.
Serno: 34X {three numbers}, frame, cyl, star marked.
{Grips not numbered}.
Mfg: 1951.
One of the favorites in my collection.
Cheers:
Donald

 

[two-bit cowboy]

4989X…..earliest reported Model of 1953 New J frame, a 4 screw, June ‘54

Hi Jim,

I have eleven carbon steel (as opposed to Airweights with aluminum cylinders) Model of 1953 Chiefs in my database that precede 4989X.

46042 is the first, shipped September '54.

Interestingly, three of the five Model of 1953 Chiefs I show shipping in June '54 have 3" barrels. (45962 is the last 3" Baby Chiefs in the consecutive Baby numbers.)

 

[mod34]

Maybe a REALLY rookie question (though didn't think I was a rookie): difference between these and the Terrier's (.38/32)?

 

[quinn]

Maybe a REALLY rookie question (though didn't think I was a rookie): difference between these and the Terrier's (.38/32)?

Caliber: The Terrier is chambered in the shorter 38 S&W cartridge. The Chiefs Special is chamber in the longer 38 Special cartridge

 

[jcelect]

Caliber: The Terrier is chambered in the shorter 38 S&W cartridge.

The 38 S&W is shorter and bigger in dia. The bullet is .361"
They WILL NOT chamber in a 38 Spl gun.
jcelect