removed serial number question

jjones33 · #1 03-10-2009, 01:19 PM

A previous thread showed a M&P that had been refinished and had the SN from the frame probably accidentally removed by a heavier hand than needed on the buffer. Or on purpose but that doesn't matter for the point of the discussion.

Realizing that no one here can give a lawful ruling my question is if the SN was removed prior to the GCA of '68, before SN's were required, would it be illegal today. As we know some older guns have no serial number from days gone by. If it was removed post GCA '68 then it would be illegal but prior can it be safely be possessed or restamped easily without legal hassles?

jjones33 · #2 03-10-2009, 01:19 PM

A previous thread showed a M&P that had been refinished and had the SN from the frame probably accidentally removed by a heavier hand than needed on the buffer. Or on purpose but that doesn't matter for the point of the discussion.

Realizing that no one here can give a lawful ruling my question is if the SN was removed prior to the GCA of '68, before SN's were required, would it be illegal today. As we know some older guns have no serial number from days gone by. If it was removed post GCA '68 then it would be illegal but prior can it be safely be possessed or restamped easily without legal hassles?

dant · #3 03-10-2009, 01:36 PM

sorry, but that is a no doubter, if it EVER had a serial number, in its history and it has been altered, obliterated, deleted, it is a violation of current Federal laws.........
sorry, strip out the parts and destroy the frame, or turn it in......but I would not want to be caught "holding" ( possession)

reg55 · #4 03-10-2009, 06:49 PM

Couldn't a SN be relocated to another location on the gripframe such as the way S&W does when adding a butt swivel to an already numbered gun? "Would it be a case of the number needing to be stamped in the new location before the original number was removed or altered"

Randy

mikepriwer · #5 03-10-2009, 07:39 PM

On the other thread, the events , and the facts, are exactly as I described.

If BATF is made aware of a gun without the serial number on the frame, they will confiscate it.
Any licensed gunsmith is obligated to report a gun without the serial number on the frame, to
BATF . Its just as simple as that.

How a serial number gets to be on a gun is another story. Licensed gun smiths do not ask ,nor
do they care, how a serial number got stamped on a gun. It just has to be there, or its an
illegal gun, in the eyes of BATF.

If, for example, a serial number is damaged in the process of refinishing, but is still
completely legible, then a gunsmith can restamp the number - as long as it is legible when
he/she receives it.

Later, Mike Priwer

Art Doc · #6 03-10-2009, 08:19 PM

I have heard that one may restamp a serial if it can be determined that the current owner is not responsible for the theft and the original owner cannot be located due to the amount of time passed. This presumes the correct number can be ascertained and it's supposed to be done under ATF supervision so there is every chance they might just bag the gun.

If I had a very old gun that I felt had its serial removed from the frame long ago meaning returning it to the rightful owner was likely impossible and I knew the number from other locations on the gun I would invest in a set of numerical stamps and just remark it myself.

It occurs to me that I should pick up a set of stamps just in case.

kwill1911 · #7 03-11-2009, 06:58 AM

#8 03-11-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jjones33: ...can it be safely be possessed or restamped easily without legal hassles?

Short, Long and In-between answer is NO, NO and NO!!!

And, I don't know what is so hard to understand; the answer isn't going to change no matter how many times you ask the question nor how you word the question.

mikepriwer · #9 03-11-2009, 08:50 AM

Kevin, Ted, Mike & others

I cut this image from the letter from ATF, of January 2009:

As I noted, this turn-of-the century gun had the serial number completely obliterated.
The digits were drilled out. I got the owner to locate the serial number on the latch,
barrel, cylinder, and grips.

You can see the result.

Regards, Mike Priwer

kwbikr · #10 03-11-2009, 12:58 PM

My experience is a bit different...I found a model 28 with the crane area ground and the numbnuts did not realize the actual serial (not the assembly numbers) was on the butt of the frame. I was concerned about the "obliterated" statement so had a BATF guy look at it and he said I was good to go because the serial was perfectly intact (S-serial BTW) despite the crane damage...

DHENRY · #11 03-11-2009, 01:14 PM

The way I read (and re-read) my BATFE manuals, dant has it nailed.
Even in the case of a 'special-plea', non-license-requiring antique, I would be the guy wro errs on the side of caution.
Just remember..."I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.".
Right.
Don

m-1911 · #12 03-11-2009, 01:30 PM

Since an "ANTIQUE", pre 1898, gun is not a "firearm" by BATF definition, I would venture a guess that a removed sn on an antique is not a problem

2152hq · #13 03-11-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

...if the SN was removed prior to the GCA of '68, before SN's were required

>
SN's were required before the GCA68 on all firearms mfg in the USA EXCEPT on 22calRF long guns,,and shotguns.

Most of those exceptioned firearms were also SN'd by mfgs., but in some cases they were not.

GCA68 demanded that all firearms mfg (and imported into) in the USA were SN'd.

Pontiaker · #14 03-11-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikepriwer:
Kevin, Ted, Mike & others

I cut this image from the letter from ATF, of January 2009:

As I noted, this turn-of-the century gun had the serial number completely obliterated.
The digits were drilled out. I got the owner to locate the serial number on the latch,
barrel, cylinder, and grips.

You can see the result.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Everyone please read this post. Its not a big deal. If the butt serial number is gone but all the other numbers are in their place and match it is no big deal to get the ok to restamp the number on the butt. Everytime one of these threads are started everyone and their brother comes in and says ITS ILLEGAL! WELL ITS NOT AND ITS NOT HARD TO FIX IT. If you dont know the answer to a question sometimes its better to not post about it and see what people who have dealt with it can say as fact.I had a triplelock with the same thing.All the numbers are there except for the butt, its been renickled, etc... The other thing is if you had a gun with no butt serial number and all the rest were there, complete and matching and I stamped the number in the butt in the correct font and size dyou think anyone would even give it a second look? Hell no!

2152hq · #15 03-12-2009, 09:10 AM

There are 2 different issues.

One is the possession of the gun with the altered,obliterated ser#,,and that is clearly an offense of Fed Regs (see the letter in kwill1911 post). Also same language in all 50 states laws.

The other is the application to the BATFE to allow a ser# be restamped that has previously been removed/altered/obliterated. Or sometimes to restamp a ser# in a different location on a firearm, such as in custom work. The first instance happens many times from refinishing and alteration work. Other removals/obliterations occur through simple ignorance but with no criminal intent.

If the BATFE determines that the gun is not 'contraband', then they may at their decresion allow it (remarking). They usually do in the case of the drilled through original number or buffed orig#, etc.
They're not real warm to the idea of moving a ser# to another location on the gun for the convenience of custom work in my past experiences.

They may also demand that a new, unique number be placed on the frame in place of whatever original serial number you may believe was there.
In those cases the new ser# will have an 'ATF' prefix and is most likely to be applied by a LE agency before returning the firearm to the rightful owner. This usually happens in cases of a recovered stolen firearm and then not very often. I've run accross only 4 in the last 40 years of working on them,,all handguns.

They're not hard to work with,,but they do have their regs to follow also.

You can do yourself a favor if you know the guns history too before starting down this road.
Restamping a missing number is one thing, but not knowing the reason it was removed in the first place is another. Some are obvious wear, gunsmithing work, etc, others bring suspicions of theft.

Hondo44 · #16 03-12-2009, 09:37 AM

Does anyone know if there is a method to 'retrieve' the number from the location where a polished off serial number was originally stamped with x-ray, chemicals, etc?

Jim Watson · #17 03-12-2009, 10:06 AM

They do it all the time on CSI. Some of the TV techniques might actually work.

Anecdote: A friend worked in a gun/pawn shop here in the 1970s.. A customer offered a K38 for pawn. My friend noticed that the serial number had been ground off the butt. He took the gun in pawn but contacted the district BATF agent and the local cops. The customer got unwanted official attention. My friend pointed out the other serial number locations to the fed and the cops and they let the original owner have his gun back. There was no mention of restamping the serial number on the butt of the gun since it was showing elsewhere. Things were a little more casual 35 years ago.

mikepriwer · #18 03-12-2009, 10:11 AM

Hondo

Yes - there are a couple of techniques, but they require that a layer of metal remains,
that retains a molecular image of the original stamped number. A stamping goes deeper
than what just appears. If the digits have been drilled out, so that nothing is left
of the distrubed metal, then nothing can be recovered.

I forget the details, but magna-fluxing and/or radiography come to mind.

Later, Mike Priwer