I’ve had this one for a few years. Its a .38 Special and it has no military or other markings on it anywhere, other than an S under the left grip. The grips are numbered to the gun.







There is a spot on the lower backstrap where it looks like a marking was ground off, a long time ago.



I have a letter request all made up in the hope I could find out where it was sent, but I have also read that these earlier ones (Spring 1942?) all went to the DSC and that is all the letter will show. Later ones may have gone directly to a defense plant or police department.

Serial number is 974139.

True or not? I’d rather not spend a hundred bucks for a letter to tell me what I already know.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

with a parkerized finish, I would not.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

I don‘t know exactly when in spring 1942 the DSC gave up on being involved in the physical shipping business, and started having S&W shipping directly to approved buyers. I believe by the time of this serial (April/May), that was already happening, but can‘t say for sure for S&W. For Colts, the change happened in March.

The US variant pre-Victorys did not all go to the DSC. The Navy and Maritime Commission were also recipients that early.

But with the scrubbed backstrap marking, it is likely that this was an agency- or company-stamped DSC contract gun.

As a famous government official once mused, this is an unknown unknown.

Chances are high it shipped to a law enforcement or defense-related destination. (I don't think the DSC received guns by this time, they just determined who was allowed to get them.) So the question remains if your curiosity is worth the $100?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I've accumulated a fair number of "letters," many from buying S&W's that previous owners have lettered.

I find the details Roy, and now Don, shares are always interesting, even if it's background history and not something directly related to my S&W.

Join the SWCA & SWHF. After ordering a few letters the memberships will have paid for themselves, and you still get the wonderful benefits associated with two terrific organizations.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

I'll have to agree with Alan. From the Victory Model Database one can see that within 1000 numbers on either side of your's none are recorded as having shipped directly to the DSC. Rather, most went to various Law Enforcement Agencies, the US Navy, the Tenn. Valley Authority, Anacostia Electric Co., Wheeling Steel and other similar utilities and defense industry destinations. If you are asking for my opinion I would say get the letter, and then let us know what you learn.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Why does the finish matter?

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I should gave expanded my reply. Looking at 38/200 models, the pre war units had blued finishes. More likely that one of those shipped somewhere other than US, or British govt. Seems to me that all, or almost all, of the parkerized ones shipped to uncle sam im that time frame and the letter would not reveal much.i could be mistaken.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Go for it. A letter signed by Mr. Jinks about your pistol...priceless.

Note that sigp220.45’s gun is not a .38/200 BSR, but a .38 Special US version.

On the 5” BSR, one best goes not by the finish, but the presence of the UNITED STATES PROPERTY indicating Lend-Lease. Once that’s there, the guns all letter as shipped to the same depot, no matter what the final destination, which the letter won’t contain since S&W had nothing more to do with that. Before then, most went to the BPC, but there also were direct shipments to South Africa, Canada, etc.

On the 4” US version, the first look should also be for the topstrap stamping. Both US NAVY (occ. also on side frame) and US PROPERTY indicate a letter will most likely show a Navy yard as shipping destination.

Unstamped guns like the one presented here can be interesting both blued and with the utility finish (what you call parkerizing). Not a lot of commercial .38 Specials were produced in 1940/41 with the swivel and blue finish/checkered stocks, as the factory was busy with the British contracts. Those frequently went to agencies and other interesting recipients.

But as Charlie listed in his post above, once the utility finish and smooth stocks (the classic Victory configuration) had been introduced, by the time of this gun, there were still a wide variety of DSC-supplied recipients. Chances for an interesting letter are much better than on marked military-shipped guns.

I have several DSC pre-Victories on my list having very close SNs. All of them shipped during 4/42, and were sent directly to qualified civilian end users, not to DSC itself.

If you have an overwhelming need to know where it was shipped, a letter is the only way to find out. The ground-off information on the grip strap is a definite negative to its value.

I say, get the letter. Many yrs ago one of my 1st Victory models that appeared to be a DSC gun lettered as shipped to Warner Bros. Studios, Hollywood, CA c/o 1st Lt. Ronald Reagan ! If you found out it went somewhere exciting, a restoration of the grip strap marking might be possible. Ed

Letter is in the mail - I’ll be sure to post the results.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I got a letter on my 5 in. 38 S&W. It was shipped in 1941 which makes it a birth year gun and for me was worth the cost of a letter. Larry

It wouldn't have been unusual for the recipient of a DSC Victory to have the butt marked somehow to show ownership. It is highly doubtful if any of them left the factory that way, i.e., the eventual owner would apply such information with steel stamps, vibra-pen, etc. I once, many years ago, owned a Victory upon which the back grip frame was marked "Ohio State University" with a vibra-pen. Probably for use by the Ohio State U. Police Department (they had one). I never lettered it to find out, as I wasn't much interested in knowing.

Absolutely! I especially like to get the unmarked Victory's lettered, even if there is no V prefix. it is most likely a DSC gun, but in my opinion, they are quite often the most interesting to get letters on. According to my database, your gun most likely shipped in April 1942. Please let us know the results of the letter. Inquiring minds wanna know!

Well, that was fast!



The old boy spent the war guarding a dam or powerplant, which is pretty cool.





These serious looking gals were members of the Women Officers of Public Safety, known as WOOPs. They must have used both Os to keep from calling them the then-popular slur for Italians, but still. I guess its better than Women's Armed Response Team.

Kudos to Don and the SWHF for such a fantastic turn-around time!

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

That's what S&W called it.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

Ferrous!

The Parker process was used on Victory models for only a brief period (about two weeks) in the spring of 1942. Before and after that, S&W used its own proprietary formula, variously called "Black Magic" or "Midnight Black." There is some debate as to whether those two were the same thing. Personally, I don't know enough to have the answer to that question.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

They are very likely the same thing. “Black Magic” is the name of a commercial black oxide metal finish process (from the Hubbard - Hall Company). It is not phosphate (Parkerizing), and is similar to the alkaline hot bath oxide bluing process used by most gun manufacturers today. That is what S&W used to finish nearly all of the WWII “Victory” revolvers. I believe Winchester was the first gun manufacturer to adopt it, during the late 1930s. In Ned Schwing’s book on Winchester .22 rifles, he discusses it fairly thoroughly.

A couple of remarks:

The actual Parkerizing (TM) was not actually used on any Victory models. According to the primary sources we have, it happened around 980,000 of the pre-V serial range on 2,187 DSC-shipped revolvers. The irony is that we have no idea how to distinguish these from the standard sandblast Black Magic. The wording of the letters is unreliable, and in the shipping documentation, which is used for the letters, the finish appears rarely specified beyond “sandblast”, if at all. And there is no reason to assume they look much different.

The second point is the assumption of a “proprietary process”. This was accepted wisdom for a long time, primarily to explain the “Midnight Black” term in the documents/letters, which appears nowhere else, ergo it must be proprietary. The problem is that such a proprietary process lacks any evidence whatsoever for its existence. The company used Black Magic capitalized in advertising, meaning they were clearly using Hubbard-Hall’s process properly licensed. Until somebody produces the documents that show something different, I assume that after using Black Magic for some time, S&W decided to try out Parker’s process, but found it offered no advantage or cost more and stuck with Black Magic. There may have even been some nudging to switch to Parker, from US Ordnance on behalf of Parker; they did get the Colt contract.

Attached Images

506DDF0C-A102-4CF0-8CC2-AC85F6F644DE.jpg (23.9 KB, 444 views)

Somewhat mysterious to me why S&W did not use a phosphate finish for the Victories, as most, if not all, other US military small arms did - M1 Garand, .30 Carbine, .45 M1911A1, and .30/.50 MGs. But there must have been some good reason.

Congrats on a great Pre-Victory to have in your collection!!!!

I told my oldest son that this gun lettered to the TVA, expecting to have to explain to him what TVA was. Nope: turns out he’s a big fan of the Drive By Truckers, and this song.

TVA - YouTube

He said for him that was the coolest possible outcome for a factory letter.

Go figure!

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

And, THIS is why I collect S&Ws!! Outstanding !

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Randy
Provenance nerd

"To letter or not letter, THAT is the question."

One of the reasons to letter a S&W is that you never know what you will find out about your firearm.

1. The first (I am pretty sure) firearm I lettered was a non-descript 2", RB, pre-Model 10 with the original grips. But it called to me and I got it fairly inexpensively. Turns out that according to Mr. Jinks, this revolver shipped the month I was born. Not very historical in the larger sense but kinda neat to me.

2. Another revolver I lettered was advertised by the seller as a pre-Model 15. 4 inch barrel of course (so it HAD to be a pre-Model 15). I learned to shoot with a Model 15 in the AF so this was something a little special to me. However I was always curious why the barrel markings were not very well-centered. Imagine my surprise when I found out that what I really had was a 6" K-38 Masterpiece shipped in Jan 1949 but returned to the factory in May 1950 to have the barrel shortened to 4". Verified by letter and the markings on the frame under the grips. Reading between the lines I surmise that the owner wanted one of the new Combat Masterpieces but due to slow supply, went the factory route for this re-work.

3. The last revolver I lettered was a nice but a little worn Model 64-5 with a bobbed hammer and DAO action. The "story" was that FFL thought it came from CA, possibly used by Corrections. Turns out that it was part of a 50 gun special order for Brinks in 1995. Interesting but not that special, at least to me.

HOWEVER. I decided to sell it recently and my ad caught the eye of a gentleman across the state who happened to have been a Brinks guard at this time and carried one of these firearms. He bought it and it's gone back to someone who may have carried it as a duty firearm. Now THAT is a neat story.

Maybe my luck in letters is a little more significant that others, but you just don't know until you try.

That's my story. And I'm sticking to it.

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Frosty
S&WCA # 2816

Trivia: I started collectng guns as a teenager over 80 yrs ago and am now been downsizing my files of "factory letters" going back to the 1940s. Colts, S&Ws, Winchesters, Marlins, etc. The guns are mostly gone, and the file cabinet of letters is now destined for the recycle bin. It's interesting to compare what the letters revealed and how they changed over time. S&W letters from the 40s to around the 60s, when Roy Jinks came aboard and installed a much better S&W latter format, were signed by various factory staff, usually marketing or sales, and only gave the shipping date, as month & year, and where the gun was sent. Colt & Winchester letters were much better at that time. Remington & Marlin varied, depending on who got the job there of answering my letter request. I almost considerd having a novel Symposium display of S&W letters, showing the evolution of the information in the letters up to now where the SWHF info is added to the letter package. Quite an improvement ! ( A factory letter from British gun makers, is something else, however. A Purdy, Westly Richards, etc gun's letter give you a biography of the workers who made the gun and where that gun has been from beginning to date ! Amazing ! ) Ed