Model 1917 Target in .45 Colt

I posted this unusual Model 1917 under another thread that was discussing conversions from 45 ACP to 45 Colt and visa versa, but it didn't even draw a comment. I post it here in the hope that 1917 fans will enjoy seeing something out of the ordinary ... or not ... maybe there are lots of them around



According to the S&W factory letter, serial number 179014 started out an standard Model of 1917 and shipped on August 18, 1927, to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. There were two Model 1917s in the shipment at $21.90 each. Since there are no US Property markings on the gun and it shipped to a dealer, I am assuming it can be considered a commercial variety ... tell me if that's a bad assumption.

However, as you can see, the revolver didn't stay an ordinary Model of 1917. Based on a * on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworded to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet.



It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on the correct headspace for 45 Colt, I believe the factory replaced the cylinder ... only wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder to go with it.



My cheap camera doesn't take very good pictures at close range, but would be willing to invest in a good one if there is interest in seeing more pics.

Russ
S&WCA #853

I posted this unusual Model 1917 under another thread that was discussing conversions from 45 ACP to 45 Colt and visa versa, but it didn't even draw a comment. I post it here in the hope that 1917 fans will enjoy seeing something out of the ordinary ... or not ... maybe there are lots of them around



According to the S&W factory letter, serial number 179014 started out an standard Model of 1917 and shipped on August 18, 1927, to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. There were two Model 1917s in the shipment at $21.90 each. Since there are no US Property markings on the gun and it shipped to a dealer, I am assuming it can be considered a commercial variety ... tell me if that's a bad assumption.

However, as you can see, the revolver didn't stay an ordinary Model of 1917. Based on a * on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworded to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet.



It has a post-war micrometer rear sight, what I believe to be the Brazilian 1917 type front sight, and post war Magna grips. The cylinder measures 1.570" and is numbered to the gun but, based on the correct headspace for 45 Colt, I believe the factory replaced the cylinder ... only wish I had the original .45 ACP cylinder to go with it.



My cheap camera doesn't take very good pictures at close range, but would be willing to invest in a good one if there is interest in seeing more pics.

Russ
S&WCA #853

I was wondering what the factory would do to the frame lug to accomodate both cylinders? Will a .45 ACP cylinder fit?

Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB and am trying to determine if it's a commercial or government gun. S/N is 670xx (located under bbl. and on cyl.) and it's obviously been refinished at some point. No gov't markings, and no S&W monogram. I don't know if any gov't markings and/or the monogram may have been buffed out prior to the reblue. No inscription or even S/N on the butt. The hammer and trigger appear to have been polished to a bright finish, almost thought they were nickel, but determined not. Someone had removed the lanyard and filled the hole with, of all things - lead. Just finished putting a lanyard loop from GP Inc. on it. It also was sporting some crappy Franzite genuine immitation stag plastic grips from the '50's (?) Looks like HopaLong Cassidy. I'm hoping to find some pre-war walnut to put on her.
Anyway - did not mean to hijack. Anyone that can chime in and inform us about gov't vs. commercial 1917's? Thanks.

According to oldguns.net, the S&W M1917 s/n range was 5 through 175100, making yours a WW I production. I have seen 1937 Brazilian contract guns with serial numbers in the 180,000s through 190,000s if that helps.

Look for eaglehead government acceptance stamps on the cylinder, frame, and crane cutout area. Look for matching serial numbers under the barrel flat, the inside edge of the crane, on the back of the cylinder, and under the extractor. Look at the fit of the lanyard loop. If the grip frame was filed down to remove Government markings, there will be a sizeable gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame.

Originally posted by john traveler:
I was wondering what the factory would do to the frame lug to accomodate both cylinders? Will a .45 ACP cylinder fit?

Click to expand...

Don't have a .45 ACP cylinder to try but my guess is the frame lug fits the longer .45 Colt cylinder and the shorter .45 ACP cylinder would have lots of end play when the cylinder is open. Can someone else add more?

Thanks, Russ

Originally posted by Old Corp:
Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB.... No inscription or even S/N on the butt....

Click to expand...

If there's no S/N on the frame, I'd be returning it to the seller - immediately!

Mark

Originally posted by Old Corp:
Thanks - interesting post, and timely for me. I just acquired a M1917 on GB and am trying to determine if it's a commercial or government gun. S/N is 670xx (located under bbl. and on cyl.) and it's obviously been refinished at some point. No gov't markings, and no S&W monogram. I don't know if any gov't markings and/or the monogram may have been buffed out prior to the reblue. No inscription or even S/N on the butt. The hammer and trigger appear to have been polished to a bright finish, almost thought they were nickel, but determined not. Someone had removed the lanyard and filled the hole with, of all things - lead. Just finished putting a lanyard loop from GP Inc. on it. It also was sporting some crappy Franzite genuine immitation stag plastic grips from the '50's (?) Looks like HopaLong Cassidy. I'm hoping to find some pre-war walnut to put on her.
Anyway - did not mean to hijack. Anyone that can chime in and inform us about gov't vs. commercial 1917's? Thanks.

Click to expand...

I hope someone more knowledgeable than I comes along to answer your(our) questions on commercial markings.

This specimen has the S&W monogram on the left side of the frame ... see pic



and the s/n and asterisk on the butt ... see pic



It also has the serial number in all the other normal places - including the replacement .45 Colt cylinder. I say replacement because the headspace on the .45 ACP is much greater to accomodate the moon clips than would be safe for shooting .45 Colt ... see pics below w/o and with .45 Colt cartridge.







Not sure I've answered your questions but thanks for your interest.

Russ

Originally posted by john traveler:
According to oldguns.net, the S&W M1917 s/n range was 5 through 175100, making yours a WW I production. I have seen 1937 Brazilian contract guns with serial numbers in the 180,000s through 190,000s if that helps.

Look for eaglehead government acceptance stamps on the cylinder, frame, and crane cutout area. Look for matching serial numbers under the barrel flat, the inside edge of the crane, on the back of the cylinder, and under the extractor. Look at the fit of the lanyard loop. If the grip frame was filed down to remove Government markings, there will be a sizeable gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame.

Click to expand...

John, thanks very much for your questions.

I don't see any evidence of gap between the lanyard loop stud and the frame. As I mentioned to Old Corp, the s/n appears in all the proper places. Besides an assembly number on the underside of the barrel lug, there is a diamond shaped symbol where the barrel meets the frame.

There is also a mark/symbol on the crane that looks like a poorly stamped * and under it what looks like S2. I'm not sure what an eaglehead stamp looks like, but I can't get an eagle head out of it.

I will try to take pictures when I get (or borrow) a better camera.

Thanks again, Russ

Thanks Russ and others. Found some good light and looked harder. Did find a eagle's head stamp under barrel next to the 670xx and to the right of it, an 'S2'. The number 3047x on the frame (under crane) and to the left of that, another eagle's head and 'S3'. Not even a hint of monogram(s) on either side.
Top of barrel is the two - line inscription :
SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS USA
PATENTED DEC 17 1901 FEB 8 1908 SEPT 14 1909
Left side of barrel : S&W D.A.45

I'd appreciate any other insight, especially the numbers on the frame being different that the two matching numbers on cylinder and barrel.
Would a military armourer change out a frame and/or cylinder and barrel, no different than seeing a mix/match of parts on a 1911, or M1 or '03?
Thanks again.

The eagle's head and S2, S3 are Government inspectors stamps. The numbers in the frame cutout and crane are assembly numbers (also marked on inside of sideplate) are used to match up the components after finishing. The matching serial number locations are: frame butt, cylinder face, underside of extractor, inside edge of crane, and underside of barrel flat. I too would be a mite concerned that the frame is missing the serial number. If the gun passed through an FFL holder's possession, he would need the serial number.

Thank you JT - I just wanted it as a shooter, it appears that with the 'severe' refinish and heavy leaning on the buffer, that any sort of collector interest is pretty much gone on this piece.
Maybe one day there'll be interest in 1950's plastic Franzite grips!!

Originally posted by stbryson:
Hello linde,

My guess is that the barrel on your gun was also replaced at the time of the caliber conversion. I base my guess on the fact that the barrel on your gun is machined for the later style ejector rod knob. While the factory order for all Hand Ejectors to have this type of knob was made on January 22, 1927 (per "History of Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks), seven months before your gun shipped, I believe that 1917s continued to use the old style knob until much later due to the leftover WWI frames and parts.

A very nice looking and interesting gun.

Take care,

Click to expand...

Steve,

Thanks for your response and kind words.

I suspect you're right about it having a replacement barrel, which would account for the missing inspector markings and "United States Property" on the barrel flat. It might also account for the S&W DA45 roll stamp being on the left side of the barrel and not the right side as described in SCSW-3rd.

I enlisted help from my wife who believes the funny shaped symbol in the crane could, in fact, be an eaglehead. The S2 below it would further confirm that the frame was military inspected. Were parts inspected individually, or only as an assembled revolver?

There are still some unanswered questions about this revolver's first life that make me wonder if this was a military inspected frame used to satisfy an order for a Commercial Model 1917. For example: the S&W monogram on the frame; being shipped to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia and not Springfield Armory; and the lack of U.S. Army Model 1917 on the butt.

Any further insights would be appreciated.

Russ
S&WCA #853

Very nice roller Russ, thanks for showing it.

I too have a customized '17. It started life as military weapon. Then someone added a post war rear sight just like yours and a .455 barrel 6.375 inches long. The cylinder is still .45 ACP but with very large throats. The extractor matches the cylinder but they aren't original either.

No re-blue on mine. I love it. Yours would match mine perfectly, by the way!


Cat

Originally posted by stbryson:
Hello Russ,

Another possibility for your gun is that the gun was totally rebuilt at the time of the 1949 rework, with the serial number of the original gun transferred to the new gun. If that was the case, your gun probably would have the later style hammer block that was introduced late in WWII.

Take care,

Click to expand...

Steve,

Surprisingly, the gun does not currently have the post WWII hammer block, although it could have been removed by a previous owner. I do believe your premise that the gun was virtually rebuilt at the factory in 1949. That said, it's becoming increasingly academic whether it started out as a Military or Commercial variation in its first life.

Another premise: In Roy Jink's Revised Tenth Anniversary Edition book, pg 206, he describes the late 1940s design evolution of the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950, Target. "The firm did produce a few .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917s with target sights but they were not satisfied with the results". With the rework date stamp of 7/49, I can't help but wonder if this gun wasn't a product of that design evolution.

Oh, the thrill of the hunt! Thanks again,

Russ

Your gun started life as a commercial. That fact is more than substantiated by the serial number and ship date.
Many early commercials have parts- barrels and cylinders and even frames that do NOT have inspector's stamps. I suppose they had not yet been inspected. I have seen many commercial 1917's, but I don't recall one with all three parts stamped. One or two, yes, not all three.
Steve is right about the large mushroom knob being used later than other models. They had zillions of the rods, and barrels cut for them.

If you cock the hammer, and post a pic of the side, I can tell you if the gun had the modern hammer block.

Hi, Old Corp:
I would be interested in those Franzite Stag Grips from the "1950s".
Jimmy

Originally posted by handejector:
Your gun started life as a commercial. That fact is more than substantiated by the serial number and ship date.
Many early commercials have parts- barrels and cylinders and even frames that do NOT have inspector's stamps. I suppose they had not yet been inspected. I have seen many commercial 1917's, but I don't recall one with all three parts stamped. One or two, yes, not all three.
Steve is right about the large mushroom knob being used later than other models. They had zillions of the rods, and barrels cut for them.

If you cock the hammer, and post a pic of the side, I can tell you if the gun had the modern hammer block.

Click to expand...

Lee,

Appreciate confirmation that she started out as a Commercial variation. Here are a couple of pictures with the hammer cocked - hope they show what you're looking for.






Thank you for this S&W Forum - its great!

Russ

On the S/N', with the 175100 being the top of the range for WW1 guns, there were a batch of frames found in the factory from WW1 range, and used to fill an order to Brazil in 1946. I have S/N 170729 out of this group and Roy advised was shipped in Apr. 1946 as part of this group. It is a round top, rather than the flat top made up for Brazil in 1937.

Whoever did the work on your 1917, it looks very well done.

Originally posted by H Richard:
On the S/N', with the 175100 being the top of the range for WW1 guns, there were a batch of frames found in the factory from WW1 range, and used to fill an order to Brazil in 1946. I have S/N 170729 out of this group and Roy advised was shipped in Apr. 1946 as part of this group. It is a round top, rather than the flat top made up for Brazil in 1937.

Whoever did the work on your 1917, it looks very well done.

Click to expand...

Thanks, everything points to the S&W factory doing the rework in July 1949.

Does you '46 Brazil have target sights?

Russ