ol777gunnerz
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Anyone know approximately how many of the 22/32 target Bekeart style revolvers were sold by S&W?
How Many Bekeart Style 22/32's Were Made?
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I assume you mean the highest numbered stock with the number stamped in the base of the left stock. Which is a good question: What is the highest such number?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...odels-22-32-hfts.html?highlight=Bekeart+grips
JSRIII in this lengthy thread might have detailed this somewhere.
A photograph of one such number in my collection is attached.
Attachments
According to N&J (which I am inclined to regard highly), those with numbered grips---a separate serial number stamped on the base of the grip run from 1 to 3,000.
As to the number of revolvers made, they're numbered in with the 32 hand ejector series in its several configurations running to 534,532; so let's just say a lot.
And we can also say whatever JSRIII has to say about them reflects the fact he's most certainly forgotten more about them than I know----or could come up with after scanning the books.
Ralph Tremaine
As to the number of revolvers made, they're numbered in with the 32 hand ejector series in its several configurations running to 534,532; so let's just say a lot.
And we can also say whatever JSRIII has to say about them reflects the fact he's most certainly forgotten more about them than I know----or could come up with after scanning the books.
Ralph Tremaine
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Off the top of my head, I would have said 3000 was about the total number of these but not necessarily exactly the total number produced.
This from the letter on mine (#444707, shipped March 8, 1927): "The .22/32 Hand Ejector was numbered in with the .32 Hand Ejector series, and started at serial number 138226." "Although, at the present time, the exact total production for this model cannot be given, it is known that a large quantity was produced. This model was finally discontinued from production in 1935 and replaced by the 1953 .22/32 Target Model 35."
So------given our propensity to make something out of nothing, I'm inclined to believe A WHOLE BUNCH MORE than 3,000 HFT's were cranked out between 1911(?) and 1935. I'd even be inclined to suppose there were A WHOLE BUNCH MORE .22/32's than there were .32 Hand Ejectors-----all the while admitting I wouldn't know a .32 Hand Ejector if it bit me on the nose---------and having said that, I'm reminded of a .32 Regulation Police Target in my collection (#449510, shipped February 18, 1927) which may also be some sort of kin to a .32 Hand Ejector.
And sure enough, it is!!------and here I thought the only thing worth knowing about it was it was shipped to Argentina! So, any and all who are interested in these sorts of things can get out the books and see what's what with that. As for me, I reckon I was some just some sort of quasi collector (a second class citizen of sorts) who was only interested in blue steel target guns with walnut handles, and never quite understood or even cared what was kin to what---or when it started or stopped, or how many there were----unless of course there weren't very many at all (like the pre-war/post war .32 Regulation Police Targets numbering a mere 196 units). I ended up with two of those, and thought that was pretty neat--but only because there were not very many of them around---and because the first one I got from Herbie Harris, brand new in the box, cost $135----and it sold for $2000. I got the second one from someone who's even dumber than I am. It was advertised as a "22/32 Hand Ejector Target, .32 caliber". I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I knew it was worth more than the $450 he was asking--------and it too sold for $2000. I guess being something less than a student isn't all bad----just different.
Ralph Tremaine
So------given our propensity to make something out of nothing, I'm inclined to believe A WHOLE BUNCH MORE than 3,000 HFT's were cranked out between 1911(?) and 1935. I'd even be inclined to suppose there were A WHOLE BUNCH MORE .22/32's than there were .32 Hand Ejectors-----all the while admitting I wouldn't know a .32 Hand Ejector if it bit me on the nose---------and having said that, I'm reminded of a .32 Regulation Police Target in my collection (#449510, shipped February 18, 1927) which may also be some sort of kin to a .32 Hand Ejector.
And sure enough, it is!!------and here I thought the only thing worth knowing about it was it was shipped to Argentina! So, any and all who are interested in these sorts of things can get out the books and see what's what with that. As for me, I reckon I was some just some sort of quasi collector (a second class citizen of sorts) who was only interested in blue steel target guns with walnut handles, and never quite understood or even cared what was kin to what---or when it started or stopped, or how many there were----unless of course there weren't very many at all (like the pre-war/post war .32 Regulation Police Targets numbering a mere 196 units). I ended up with two of those, and thought that was pretty neat--but only because there were not very many of them around---and because the first one I got from Herbie Harris, brand new in the box, cost $135----and it sold for $2000. I got the second one from someone who's even dumber than I am. It was advertised as a "22/32 Hand Ejector Target, .32 caliber". I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, but I knew it was worth more than the $450 he was asking--------and it too sold for $2000. I guess being something less than a student isn't all bad----just different.
Ralph Tremaine
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The story of the "22/32 Hand Ejector Target, .32 caliber" is a whole lot better than just poking fun at the dim bulb I got it from: It's August in Tennessee---read as hotter than dammit. There's a gun show in Knoxville---90 miles up the road, maybe 4-500 tables, and a show I normally go through in an hour without even slowing down----much less stopping to pick anything up, to have a look at it; but I didn't have anything better to do; so off I went.
As luck would have it, the air conditioning is on vacation; so this show is worse than normal. 45 minutes later, I'm through, and heading for home.
Here's a sign: "More Tables Upstairs". I figure upstairs is hotter than downstairs---but what the hell!! Up I go. I arrive at the upstairs landing to find myself in the middle of a horseshoe arrangement of 14 tables. I stop, and scan the tables. There's a likely looking S&W something on the table at my far left-----over I go.
It looks for all the world like one of these pre-war/post war .32 Regulation Police Target guns----1 of 196---and it's flat mint!! The tag says "22/32 Hand Ejector Target, .32 Caliber---$450". I pick it up, and that's when my problems began. All these guns are numbered with the same serial number prefix (657) but, speaking of dim bulbs, I can't remember what it is----what to do? My traveling library is in my briefcase---downstairs under a friend's table. There's no way in hell this guy is going to let me go waltzing off downstairs with his gun to check my books----and there's no way in hell I'm going to put this (could be) $2000 gun down so somebody with his brain squared away better than mine can grab it.
I finally decide the gun is most certainly worth $450----never mind what it is or isn't; so I hand him 5 $100 bills. He says, "Oh, you want to buy this?" I was, oh so tempted, to tell him, "No, I just want change for the phone", but bit my tongue; and just nodded. Then I saunter over to the stairs, and run down as fast as my little legs will carry me.
I arrive at my friend's table, and point to my briefcase. He says, "Looks like Ralph's got a goody!", and hands me my case. I remember the book, and even the page number (156) these guns are on------but not that damn 657. I get to page 156, and give a fist pump---and my friend says, " Yep, Ralph's got a goody!!" And Ralph did---sure enough!
Ralph Tremaine
As luck would have it, the air conditioning is on vacation; so this show is worse than normal. 45 minutes later, I'm through, and heading for home.
Here's a sign: "More Tables Upstairs". I figure upstairs is hotter than downstairs---but what the hell!! Up I go. I arrive at the upstairs landing to find myself in the middle of a horseshoe arrangement of 14 tables. I stop, and scan the tables. There's a likely looking S&W something on the table at my far left-----over I go.
It looks for all the world like one of these pre-war/post war .32 Regulation Police Target guns----1 of 196---and it's flat mint!! The tag says "22/32 Hand Ejector Target, .32 Caliber---$450". I pick it up, and that's when my problems began. All these guns are numbered with the same serial number prefix (657) but, speaking of dim bulbs, I can't remember what it is----what to do? My traveling library is in my briefcase---downstairs under a friend's table. There's no way in hell this guy is going to let me go waltzing off downstairs with his gun to check my books----and there's no way in hell I'm going to put this (could be) $2000 gun down so somebody with his brain squared away better than mine can grab it.
I finally decide the gun is most certainly worth $450----never mind what it is or isn't; so I hand him 5 $100 bills. He says, "Oh, you want to buy this?" I was, oh so tempted, to tell him, "No, I just want change for the phone", but bit my tongue; and just nodded. Then I saunter over to the stairs, and run down as fast as my little legs will carry me.
I arrive at my friend's table, and point to my briefcase. He says, "Looks like Ralph's got a goody!", and hands me my case. I remember the book, and even the page number (156) these guns are on------but not that damn 657. I get to page 156, and give a fist pump---and my friend says, " Yep, Ralph's got a goody!!" And Ralph did---sure enough!
Ralph Tremaine
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No one knows the exact number of .22/32 HFT's that were produced. As others have stated, they shared serial number blocks with the .32 hand ejectors so using a starting serial number and the highest known .22/32 HFT serial number will not get you there. Maybe someday if Roy or Don has time the records can be searched but it would be a long and arduous process.
According to my database containing over 2000 examples, I feel that there were 2 runs of 1,050 and one run of 490 accounting for close to 2600 whose left stock bottom received an assembly order number imprint. The first run which I researched in the factory records, thanks to the graciousness of Dr. Jinks, contains serial numbers 138,226 through 139,275. I have dates and destinations for almost all of this run except the dreaded few where the record was not readable. The dreaded "open on the books".
For the first run, 138,226-139,275 I have recorded imprint numbers starting at 1 and going to 1,018.
For the next run I have it recorded starting around 161,XXX to 165,954, I show a low imprint number of 1,094 on a Bekeart shipped gun shipped 5/18/1912 to a high of 2071 shipped in January of 1913 to Norvell Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. The majority of the guns I have listed in this run went to Bekeart on either 5/18/1912 or 6/3/1912.
The last run of guns with imprints found on the left stock bottom are the 490 consecutively serial numbered guns that went to M.W. Robinson in 5 shipments on Jan 31, Feb 18, 21, 27 and Mar 19, 1914. These guns show a low imprint number of 2253 to a high of 2582 and start at 207,926 and end at 208,415.
The next serial numbers to appear in my database start at 220,110 and thereafter I never see another stock imprint number except a few fliers that I believe to be miss matched guns.
So my conclusions drawn from studying this model for the last 2 decades are that there were most likely 2 large runs of 1,050 in 1911 and then 1912/13 and a 490 gun run in early 1914.
This would represent 1050, 1050 and 490 or a total of 2590 guns. My recorded stock imprints run from 1 to 2582. Unfortunately, S&W did not maintain a record of these numbers or at least we have never found one. All of this information is based on observation.
So I believe that these stock imprints were halted after the M.W. Robinson shipments and when this model was put into regular factory production around mid 1914.
Certainly if anyone has an example outside of these parameters, I would love to hear about it.
If you own one and would like to share the information, (no owner info is recorded) I would love to add it to the collective knowledge.
According to my database containing over 2000 examples, I feel that there were 2 runs of 1,050 and one run of 490 accounting for close to 2600 whose left stock bottom received an assembly order number imprint. The first run which I researched in the factory records, thanks to the graciousness of Dr. Jinks, contains serial numbers 138,226 through 139,275. I have dates and destinations for almost all of this run except the dreaded few where the record was not readable. The dreaded "open on the books".
For the first run, 138,226-139,275 I have recorded imprint numbers starting at 1 and going to 1,018.
For the next run I have it recorded starting around 161,XXX to 165,954, I show a low imprint number of 1,094 on a Bekeart shipped gun shipped 5/18/1912 to a high of 2071 shipped in January of 1913 to Norvell Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. The majority of the guns I have listed in this run went to Bekeart on either 5/18/1912 or 6/3/1912.
The last run of guns with imprints found on the left stock bottom are the 490 consecutively serial numbered guns that went to M.W. Robinson in 5 shipments on Jan 31, Feb 18, 21, 27 and Mar 19, 1914. These guns show a low imprint number of 2253 to a high of 2582 and start at 207,926 and end at 208,415.
The next serial numbers to appear in my database start at 220,110 and thereafter I never see another stock imprint number except a few fliers that I believe to be miss matched guns.
So my conclusions drawn from studying this model for the last 2 decades are that there were most likely 2 large runs of 1,050 in 1911 and then 1912/13 and a 490 gun run in early 1914.
This would represent 1050, 1050 and 490 or a total of 2590 guns. My recorded stock imprints run from 1 to 2582. Unfortunately, S&W did not maintain a record of these numbers or at least we have never found one. All of this information is based on observation.
So I believe that these stock imprints were halted after the M.W. Robinson shipments and when this model was put into regular factory production around mid 1914.
Certainly if anyone has an example outside of these parameters, I would love to hear about it.
If you own one and would like to share the information, (no owner info is recorded) I would love to add it to the collective knowledge.
Am I correct in believing Mr. Redfield's post above speaks primarily (or perhaps exclusively) of guns with a number stamped on the bottom of a grip panel?
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph, I was responding to comments made regarding thoughts or book comments about how many .22/32's received the left stock bottom imprint. My belief is around 2590. TOTAL production is unknown but definitely more than that. The imprinted guns only cover the years from 1911 to 1914. These guns were produced well into the 1930's when the K frame .22's came into being so a lot more could have been built in the 15 years following the stock imprinted guns.
Eventually the barrel of the .22/32 was shortened to 4" and it was promoted as the "Kit Gun". These guns continue to be produced within the same serial number blocks that were being used for the 6" version so exact numbers and cut off dates are hard to determine.
Eventually the barrel of the .22/32 was shortened to 4" and it was promoted as the "Kit Gun". These guns continue to be produced within the same serial number blocks that were being used for the 6" version so exact numbers and cut off dates are hard to determine.
I interpret the original question as referring to the entire prewar production of .22/32 revolvers, not just the ones that we identify as Bekeart models.
I recall a rough tabulation from 10-12 years ago (perhaps by Roy, perhaps not) that put the total number of pre-WWII I-frame .22 target revolvers at about 20,000. This would include every gun from the first "Bekeart" models through the Heavy Frame Target model designation and ending in the late '30s as the .22/32 Hand Ejector. I do not recall if production stats for the prewar .22/32 Kit gun (which had four-inch barrels rather than six) were included in that round number. There were between 1300 and 1500 KGs (my estimate) manufactured between 1936 and 1940, so that possible adjustment should be kept in mind if the original question here involved only the six-inch revolvers.
During the period when S&W was turning out both .22 and .32 I-frame models at the same time (1911-1940), about 400,000 serial numbers were used up. If 20,000 were .22s, they constituted five percent of production and the .32s accounted for 95 percent.
I skip the .38 S&W I-frames because they had their own serial number sequence.
I recall a rough tabulation from 10-12 years ago (perhaps by Roy, perhaps not) that put the total number of pre-WWII I-frame .22 target revolvers at about 20,000. This would include every gun from the first "Bekeart" models through the Heavy Frame Target model designation and ending in the late '30s as the .22/32 Hand Ejector. I do not recall if production stats for the prewar .22/32 Kit gun (which had four-inch barrels rather than six) were included in that round number. There were between 1300 and 1500 KGs (my estimate) manufactured between 1936 and 1940, so that possible adjustment should be kept in mind if the original question here involved only the six-inch revolvers.
During the period when S&W was turning out both .22 and .32 I-frame models at the same time (1911-1940), about 400,000 serial numbers were used up. If 20,000 were .22s, they constituted five percent of production and the .32s accounted for 95 percent.
I skip the .38 S&W I-frames because they had their own serial number sequence.
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The difficulty with trying to tie down production numbers using serial numbers is that S&W was known to use the same serial number blocks for different models. I seem to recall even hearing that S&W would intentionally even jump ahead and then back within serial number blocks to make it difficult for their competition down the street in CT to get a handle on how many guns they were producing.
Had they started with number 1 and ended the year with number 20,000, it would have been very easy for competitors to see how they were doing and what models were of interest to the public
The founders were very aware of that little company in CT and went out of their way to not include that 4 letter word on their guns when listing the caliber. They also used words like stocks instead of grips, yoke instead of crane and checking instead of checkering. As the years have passed and especially since the company left family control, many of these unique terms have fallen away and current literature will use grips and checkering instead.
Had they started with number 1 and ended the year with number 20,000, it would have been very easy for competitors to see how they were doing and what models were of interest to the public
The founders were very aware of that little company in CT and went out of their way to not include that 4 letter word on their guns when listing the caliber. They also used words like stocks instead of grips, yoke instead of crane and checking instead of checkering. As the years have passed and especially since the company left family control, many of these unique terms have fallen away and current literature will use grips and checkering instead.
