I have had a WTB ad posted on the forum for almost 2 years. I am looking for a Pre 27 4 screw that is NOT model marked. Since I can not find one to purchase at least post a few pictures of on of these. This must be a rare bird indeed. I guess most frames were being used for the 44 Mag at that time.

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Jim
SWCA #2246

I think your suspicions may be correct to some extent. Finished frames would only go to Pre-27's due to their top checkering. Probably a very narrow serial range. I think the deletion of the 5th screw varied by model. The 4th edition mentions 1956 for the pre-27. Same as the model marking. It started at one point in 1957 but its implementation took some time. The 4th edition even lists a premium for the early no-dash 4-screw. My search falls into the early model marked no-dash range.
I fell into this 4-screw No-dash a while ago. No letter but the 4th Ed. puts her in my birth-year


I'm certain that there are more knowledgeable folks out there that can break it down by year, model, and/or serial. I'd like to know too!

Best of luck in your search. Gotta be one waiting just for you.

There are others more knowledgeable than I am, but I can rough it in until others respond.
The order for the upper side plate screw deletion was in September 1956 and the order for model marking was in June 1957, so there is a small window for non model marked 4 screw N frames. Changes were not immediate we know as this was a process. My 4 screw .44 Magnum shipped in 1958. As already stated, they were making .44 Magnums sometime during this period, and not many model 27s. My understanding that "runs" were scheduled in advance, so I suppose during this period, it is possible some models were not even made! The Standard Catalog.....shows a premium of "double" for a no dash and a "substantial" premium for a -1.
It seems likely to me that the sales of the N frame .357 Magnum would have decreased after the K frame Combat Magnum was introduced as well.
Keep looking and throwing money in the gun fund!

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

They are out there, only I've never come across one. I have the 4 screw 27. Seems the non-model marked 4 screws are as hard to find as the 27-1's. One of these days one will wander into the show and come to my tables. The search continues.

I have a 5” four screw M27 that is marked as a 27-no dash, and I have a 6 1/2” M29 four screw that is not model marked. Hmmmm…… I never noticed that before.

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Everybody could shoot

Jim,
Check out post #1 by RKMesa: Factory Engraving at Its Very Finest - 3.5" 357 Rentzschke Style

This is the only non-model marked 4 screw Pre 27 I am aware of. I’m sure there are more out there, but I agree it seems there are not many to be found that are non-model marked.
-Karl

How close together are the serial numbers? I would assume the .44M is earlier than the M27, but since there is no distinction in serial order for different models, it might give some insight as to how narrow the window is for 4-screw, non-model stamped. Then there's the possibility that maybe the orders to model mark and screw deletions filtered down to the respective models a bit differently, given the .357M/M27 has a unique frame within the N frame guns (top strap checkering), or was that done as soon as it was determined which model the frame was going to get used for?

Wouldn't it have been grand to have been a fly on the wall at S&W during this period, and then later be reincarnated as a S&W collector?

I have a non model marked 4 screw 44 Magnum which is in the S173XXX range and two four screw no dash 27s which are in the S186XXX and S187XXX ranges. If I've ever seen a four screw non-model marked "pre-27" I didn't recognize it as such, or it would be in my safe. They've got to be very few and far between. And not all that many "pre-29" four screw
versions either. I found the quote below from Doc 44 which provides some insight on the 4 screw 44 Magnum numbers but may, or may not, help with the 4 screw 357s.

Doc 44 (12/25/21) "The directive to delete the upper side plate screw for N-frame revolvers was issued in Sept 1956 and 44 Magnums with 4 screw frame and no model number first appeared in Feb 1957 at aprox SN S167500. During the first half of 1957, 44 Magnums with a 5 screw frame and 4 screw frame were shipped. Stamping of MOD-29 in the yoke cut began at apron. SN S183900 late 1958, so there are aprox 16,400 SNs for all N frame models that could have 4 screw frame and no model number. If the Model 29 comprised 20% (a guess) of those manufactured, then aprox 3200 44 Magnums with a 4 screw frame and no model number may have been made. This is just over half the number shipped with a 5 screw frame and no model number."

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I have what you are looking for, mine is unmarked 6 1/2 barrel that was made in 1940 per factory letter, However, when I bought it, was missing the rear sight. Could not find the correct one, so I sent it to Jim Clark, before he passed and he fitted a new smith and wesson rear to it, and also replaced the factory front with a King Mirrored front. So, while the factory status was not kept, the addtitions and who did them help some.

I have a 6” 4 screw pre model Hwy Patrolman.
Based on my research, it looks like May, 1957 vintage.

Yes,the 4 screw N Frames are rare birds.
Best,
Gary

I went and checked my 4" and it is a 27ND.

Just a quick check of the invoices for 1957 (not a comprehensive look by any means) shows most of the 4-screw, non-model marked N-frame revolvers being shipped were 44 Magnums and the Highway Patrolman. .357 Magnums being shipped during this period were 5-screw guns (based on the serial numbers). Again, a snapshot, but it does seem to explain the low number of non-model marked, 4-screw, .357 Magnums reported by collectors.

Bill

They're not all that close. The .44 is in the S180xxx range and the .357 is in the S199xxx range. These guns are consistent with Doc 44's post above.

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Everybody could shoot

I have 4-screw Pre 29 with 6 1/2" barrel with Serial number S171398. Lettered and shipped to J. L. Galef & Son Inc. in New York, April 10th, 1957. Sorry, no Pre 27 in that range.

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NoExcuses,Trey
HF#667 CA#3421

A bit off topic, but I don't think the scarcity of 4-screw no-dash model-marked K-frames is as severe, is it?...I ask because I was looking at another of mine today, Model 15 with TH and TT, preparing it for a letter request, and I had not previously noted it is a 4-screw......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I saw one more (besides this Rentzschke engraved 3.5" pinto that KSK referenced above)...



... at last year's SWCA Symposium. It was an 8 3/8" barreled Nickel one that was in the 27 SN range (S2XXXXX). I think that Doc44 looked at it as well, and if I recall correctly, we decided that it probably just missed being stamped...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

There you go again. Trying to scramble my brain. I was having a hard enough time trying to digest all this N frame stuff.

Atcher soivice!...It's what I do......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Here is my non model marked, 4 screw, Pre-27 nickel 8 3/8" barrel Richard (RK Mesa) was referring to in post #17. This was on display at the Symposium in Glendale in my "Long Barrels" display. The LOA states the gun shipped on August 9, 1961. The sales pitch when I bought it was:

"Produced in 1960 this excellent .357 is one of the more rare configurations in the Pre-27 series, further enhanced by being such a late-production 4-screw example that is not model-marked."

Gil
SWCA #3188
SWHF #527

Attached Images

	M27 8.38 Right side N53.jpg (197.4 KB, 292 views)
	M27 8.38 left side N53.jpg (195.7 KB, 291 views)
	M27 8.38 yoke cut out N53.jpg (69.9 KB, 306 views)

Gil...the .357 should have been stamped MOD-27 in the yoke cut, but was not for an unknown reason. Happens from time to time.

Bill

Yes agreed. This is the .357 that Richard, you and I talked about at the Symposium in Glendale as it was part of my display and when we noticed it wasn't stamped, we asked you about it. I was under the impression it was a Pre-27 and I will check the LOA.

Gil
SWCA #3188
SWHF #527

I had one in my collection back about 23-24 years ()

Traded it to another collector, he is an active forum member and may chime in with a pic (?) hopefully.

The s/n was S173010, my notes say it was a Special Order gun, and I had condition at 85%..

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.............SmithNut

Gil:

That is a great gun!!! I love it! In addition to the letter, do you have a copy of the invoice?

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I have a 4 screw pre-27, serial number S 136659 (1954) - no screw in the front of the frame. I didn't realize they were uncommon. The model number was marked starting at 179,000. Mine is 6" with a patridge sight, serrated trigger, target hammer and target stocks. Guess I'll get a letter now. If anybody wants me to post photos I will be happy to.

Welcome to the forum.

That sounds like a fun gun. We would love to see some photos, but at SN S136659, there should definitely be a screw in front of the frame above the trigger guard and all 4 screws on the side-plate, making it a 5-screw pre-27. The top side plate screw was the first to go... then the trigger guard screw with the introduction of the 27-2 designation (after the 27-1s).

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Sorry, you are correct - I missed the trigger guard screw. 5 screws, my bad.

We would still LOVE to see some photos. Please.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Ok thanks for asking, here you go. Boring 5 screw from 1954. The screwdriver shown actually came with a pre-29. This is my 2nd S & W with a serial number stamped on the cylinder, the other is a regulation police. I think that's really cool.

Attached Images

	Pre-27.jpg (235.2 KB, 30 views)
	Pre-27 Cylinder.jpg (207.4 KB, 26 views)
	Pre-27 Stamp.jpg (109.4 KB, 19 views)
	Pre-27 Upper.jpg (204.0 KB, 19 views)

I don't know about boring. Here are a couple more from the same year. They make a nice trio.

Attached Images

	IMG_1028 (2).jpg (206.7 KB, 18 views)
	IMG_1029 (2).jpg (142.0 KB, 15 views)

If you'll look on the muzzle side of the extractor star, the rear side of the yoke, inside the ejector rod housing (or in its absence the underside of the barrel flat) and possibly the underside of the sight leaf as well as the usual inside of the right stock panel you may find the same number......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I came across this 4 screw, 3&1/2 inch M27 no-dash several years ago. Supposedly it belonged to a rancher in Wyoming and it was his daily carry on the ranch. Per his son who was the seller the gun was sent back to S&W for a "tune-up" at some point (and I think maybe it was re-blued at the same time ..... just my guess by looking at the markings on the grip frame). Don

Attached Images

	IMG_0025.jpg (42.4 KB, 25 views)
	IMG_0021.jpg (56.5 KB, 27 views)
	IMG_0020.jpg (88.0 KB, 24 views)
	IMG_0019.jpg (72.9 KB, 26 views)
	IMG_0018.jpg (34.4 KB, 75 views)

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Laus Deo! <><

I need a microscope! Well I did find the back of the star and inside the ejector rod housing. I guess I'm going to have to search my other models a little closer. I.m learning that I have a lot to learn!

Don't strain your eyes too hard on guns made after about the mid-fifties (I think) when soft fitting ended and the need to number each part went away...Somebody else may correct my memory on the date......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Excuse me for putting my ignorance on display, but I have not seen a butt serial number where the "S" is adjacent to the numerals. I would expect to see it well to the left. Can someone enlighten me?

Thx,
Curly