Many of us are familiar with the Defense Supplies Corp. (DSC) as it relates to the Smith & Wesson Victory revolver.


This post is meant to describe an ongoing project I’m working on to find and organize documents regarding the sale and distribution of S&W Victory revolvers by the DSC during World War Two.


The common understanding is that the U.S. government formed the DSC to handle the provisioning of small arms to various non-military users. Guards, police, etc. who needed a revolver and could not procure one on the open market (which was pretty much limited to second-hand guns) could petition the DSC to sell them a revolver, either a S&W Victory or a Colt Commando.


That is about as far as most peoples’ understanding of S&W and the DSC goes, including mine.


Recently, while reviewing documents about the DSC providing Victory revolvers to the NYPD, I noticed several little interesting tidbits about the DSC, S&W and wartime revolver sales and service. So much so, that I decided to take a deeper look at S&W and the DSC as represented in some of the documents at the S&WHF. My findings thus far have been quite interesting.


There is a search function within the S&WHF database that allows one to search by various fields. I had the database pull up all the ORDERS from 01JAN42 through 31DEC46. As you can imagine, this produced many thousands of records. I then winnowed those records down by caliber, seeking out -only- those orders that were revolvers of .38 caliber. Not surprisingly this pulled up .38 Special and .38/200 revolvers as well as a smattering of .38 S&W and the like.


Once I had assembled a folder of these orders, I started going through them. The first thing I noticed was that the orders for DSC guns were processed on standard S&W shipping invoices. The only thing that set them apart from the conventional commercial invoices was that across the top of the invoice it read “Defense Supplies Corp.” Each invoice had multiple fields of data that, when properly organized, could reveal some very interesting things.


The biggest issue was serial numbers. Unfortunately, most of the invoices (and I have by no means gone through all of them) lack serial number data. They are still quite useful, but for what we do and where our interests lie, serial number data is gold. Still, there were quite a number of invoices that –did—have serial number data and I have thus far been able to pick out about 1,200 serial numbers.


The various fields that I used to organize the data are:

Serial number – Although by no means common, there were over one thousand serial numbers jotted down thus far. In instances where a serial number was on an invoice, I added it to the spreadsheet (duh!)

Customer’s Date – Presumably this is the date the customer ordered his gun through DSC. This data occupies a specific line on the invoice.

Date – I believe this to be the date that S&W received the order from DSC and started processing it. This date also occupies a specific date on the invoice.

Shipping Date? – This is a date rubber stamped on the bottom of the invoice, usually twice, and I believe that it reflects the date of the actual shipment. I’m in the process of using some exploratory techniques to verify this thesis.

Order – This is a specific line item on the invoice and will contain the letters DSC followed by a space and then a three or four digit number (DSC 1234). Despite being labelled ORDER, this is –not—the DSC order number. Research suggests this is actually the DSC shipping or shipment number.

Order No. – This is a notation usually typed on the invoice with what is described as a “Contract No.”. From what I have seen thus far, the contract numbers were arbitrary and didn’t seem to follow any pattern. Often the incorporated the intials of the ordering party as part of the number, so when Gruman Aircraft ordered revolvers, their contract number may have been GAC1234 or some such.

Name, title, street address, city, state - Self explanatory

Number and type of guns in shipment – Again, pretty self-explanatory. The guns were almost always described as “38 M&P 4” sq.” and then either a letter “B” to indicate blue or “sand blast” to indicate a parkerized-type finish. Sometimes “sand blast” would be typed in as part of the arm description and other times just the initials “SB” would be penned in.

Record location – If you can’t locate the record, then you can’t prove anything. This is the record identifier so I can find the record again in the database.




This would be a sample of a DSC Shipping Invoice for a single gun shipment where the s/n was recorded. I wish there were a lot more of these!!!!!


Some of the interesting things I’ve noticed:

I still have a couple thousand invoices to go through. The earliest one I’ve seen thus far is DSC 660 and the latest DSC thus far has been around DSC 6300. The entire sequence of shipping invoices, organized by DSC shipping number, seems to be largely intact based upon what I have seen thus far. To be sure, there are gaps, but I think a rather detailed view can be constructed of how many guns shipped when and to whom. (Note: after the war the DSC continued in function, re-branded as the Reconstruction Finance Corp.)


Throughout the early war years (1942 and 1943) S&W was still taking and processing orders for civilian gun sales. There were many invoices with commercial order numbers on them for various guns to the usual distributors and dealers. What was really interesting about these invoices was the Customer’s Date would be something like 3/4/42 and the (shipping) Date would be 3/28/46. S&W would take orders during the war and hold them against their anticipated return to civilian production, following their publicized “First Come First Served” policy for post-war production.


The people and agencies that received DSC guns are quite varied. There are many one-gun shipments to Constable Smith or Patrolman Jones and there are scores of multi gun shipments to Big City Police Department and Small County Sheriffs Office. There are also many, many shipments to business concerns. It’s not unexpected or unusual to see 50 or 100 guns going to a Ford plant or to an Ordnance Works. Where it becomes interesting is when you see the three-gun shipment to the Joe Blow Gear & Shaft Co., Inc. and wonder why they are getting guns. A little research then shows that this little gear and shaft outfit had a contract to produce parts for the Norden bombsight or some similarly high value project that merited an armed presence. A shipment of twelve guns to the A.B. Smith & Sons company may seem rather innocuous until one digs around and finds that A.B. Smith produced bicycles before the war but then turned the machinery over to making M1 carbine bolts or radio parts or some similar wartime product they would not normally have made but had the machinery capable of making.


While the number of police agencies requesting guns is astonishing, there was a surprising number of other agencies that one would not normally think of when thinking of armed organizations. The Florida Highway Department for example got quite a number of Victory revolvers, as did various Alcoholic Beverage Control agencies, a large number of private railway police, banks, drug makers, etc.


Apparently, revolvers that went out through DSC did sometimes come back and go to other organizations. I found a few invoices where it was mentioned that the revolvers were being returned from one user who, having completed a government contract, would return the guns to DSC (via S&W) and the guns would go back into the ‘pool’.


If someone wanted a 2-inch Victory they could order a 4-inch gun through DSC, pay $1.50 to the S&W Repair Department, and the gun would be re-fitted with a 2-inch barrel and then shipped to the user. This raises some interesting questions about when one runs across a 2-inch Victory in the wild. Until it gets lettered, is it a rare 2-inch CID/OSS/FBI gun with a correspondingly high price tag or is it an undercover gun for some deputy sheriff from East Jesus, Kentucky?


One of the great things about these invoices is that they are very often accompanied by correspondence between the factory and the user and all manner of things are discussed and many different sorts of letters are found. A mother writes to S&W asking for a replacement cylinder to send to her boy in the Pacific so that he can shoot more Japs (S&W sent the cylinder to her COD but threw in a fitted extractor for the cause). A deputy sheriff writes about how much he loves his Victory model, as the finish is so “business-like” and then describes his experiences finding Japanese balloon bombs in the Pacific Northwest. A Navy Beachmaster writes about wanting to replace a .38/44 HD he lost on the beach during an amphibious landing.


Equally as interesting as what the customers would write was the various responses from S&W. Many people wrote about wanting their Victory revolvers re-blued to commercial finish and S&W had a rather detailed response about why this could not be done. A great many people also asked about getting guns and S&W had various form letters explaining the procedure for contacting the DSC for a gun and copies of the form used. Possibly the biggest question was when someone could get a commercial gun again and S&W would explain that their entire production was for the government and after the war they would fill new commercial orders on a “First Come, First Served” basis although they could not say exactly which models would continue in their line after the war and which ones would be discontinued.


The fact is that much of the factory responses to correspondence they received gave a very good picture of how the company dealt with both wartime production and the anticipated post-war re-tooling to commercial sales. Whats really great about this is that all the primary sources really help to create a fairly accurate picture of how S&W dealt with the wartime government contracts while still keeping an eye on future commercial sales.


Anyway, I’m going to use this line of posts to drop the occasional historical bon mot that I find that might strike a responsive collectors chord.


None of this would be possible, by the way, without the work of the S&WHF. If you haven’t joined, join!

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Thanks for posting that, most interesting. I believe one of my Victories is a DSC gun but haven't researched to any great extent.

Thanks for this information. Now I feel compelled to do more research on two 4 digit Victorys I own

Probably one of the most common questions that S&W responded to during the war and immediately afterwards was whether or not a Victory revolver could be sent in for refinishing to the classic S&W polished blue finish.

The short answer was no.

S&W would usually send a simple response explaining how the finish on the Victory was mandated by the government as part of the contract and that attempting to re-finish the guns with any other type of finish would produce an unsatisfactory result.

Once in a great while, however, the Repair Department would be in a particularly loquacious mood and pen a rather detailed response to this common question.

In November of 1945 the Sheriff’s Office in El Centro, California, contacted S&W about getting a Victory #V604375 refinished. They asked for “…the traditional S&W high quality blue finish…”

The factory sent a rather detailed response and while I have attached an image of it, I have also transcribed it for easier reading:

November 20, 1945

Mr. E.H. Kirby
Sheriff’s Office
El Centro, California

Dear Mr. Kirby,

Acknowledging your letter of November 3 and with reference to 38 M&P Revolver No. V604375, we certainly wi(sh) that we were able to produce the high polish finish on your revolver that is desi(r)ed, but unfortunately, we have not yet had time to prepare for this type of work. These Victory Model Revolvers were produced under Government Specifications, one of which was that sand blasting should be done over machining., rather than polishing. Since the sand blasting extends a few thousandths into the surface, it is necessary that deep polishing be performed in order to produce a high polish, and in the removal of the considerable amount of material which is necessary, you would find that monograms and other stampings would be either removed or partially obliterated, and fitted parts would lose their close tolerances. Also, these guns were produced under specifications which allowed for considerable latitude in fitting, and taken in all, the conversion of the Victory Model Revolver presents a problem which is going to require special handling.

At the present time, we are bin a seriously rushed condition here at the factory trying to convert to our standard commercial line of manufacture and have no time to undertake the special handling that would be necessary to prepare for the refinishing of sand blast revolvers in other than the same finish which is now on the guns.

By the same token, we doubt if you will be able to obtain a perfect piece of work elsewhere since most certainly, these same problems will be presented to the concerns who undertake custom refinishing, and they are not as well informed or as well equipped as we are for the job.

We certainly hope that the gun in its present condition and with its present finish will prove adequate until such time as this undertaking may be readily accomplished. Your revolver is being returned this date by Railway Express.

Very truly yours,
SMITH & WESSON, INC.

F.H. Miller
Service Department

FHM:WHB
Enc. 1




The letter seems to suggest that S&W was working on a way to refinish the guns (last paragraph) but more likely they recognized that the post-war demand for revolvers would be even greater if one included men who wanted a better finished revolver than what they had acquired during the war.

In my experience collecting NYPD revolvers, I always noticed that most showed rather clear signs of use and carrying. However, when I looked at NYPD Commando and Victory revolvers, they were usually in much better shape that the M&P’s and OP’s. I attribute this to their having been relegated to guarding the inside of a dresser drawer once the finer finished commercial guns became available.

I have seen pictures of Victory revolvers being carried on the street into the early 1950’s, but I think that as soon as a Patrolman could get his hands on a commercial post-war gun, he would do so.

S&W’s statements about finish and fit also seem to explain why so many Victory revolvers are seen as post-war nickel plated surplus. I suspect that nickel plating was the most cost effective finish that could be considered more attractive than the sand blast finish.

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

This is (and will be) very useful information for continued research into the history of S&W...Projects like this are why I am a member of S&WHF, S&WCA and this forum......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Great work, Robert, as we've come to expect from you.

There is a fair amount of confusion about the finish on Victory Models but there shouldn't be. A letter dated 2/16/42 from W.H. Weingar, Major, Ord. Dept. to S&W confirms that Colonel Drewry, Chief of the Small Arms Division, Office of the Chief of Ordnance approved the 120 grain sandblast and Black Magic finish which “…may be adopted at your convenience.” Subsequent letters back and forth further confirm the change in specifications to “Sand Blast 120 finish followed by Black Magic.”

Black Magic was (and still is) a standard oxide finish sold by Hubbard-Hall. Parkerizing is a proprietary phosphate process developed by the Parker Rustproof Co. It was used by many gunmakers during wartime production but, other than a very brief experiment with it, it was NOT used by S&W.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Is there a way to effectively tell the difference between original black magic finish and say a Victory that had been sent back to be re-arsenaled and parkerized? Would the guns look identical other than S&W markings being lighter because of a second sandblast?

Maybe ordnanceguy will weigh in and have more accurate information but guns that have gone through an actual military refinish will usually be black and the markings filled in to some extent. They were Parkerized.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Robert, we are all about historical bon mots-thanks for taking the time to share your detailed research after investing the time to accomplish it.
Well written and well researched !
Regards,

__________________
turnerriver

Ordering a Victory from DSC

I suppose if were to look at the DSC Victory in it’s logical order, the first question would be ‘How does one order a revolver from DSC’?

In various correspondence to customers of the era, S&W explains that they have not been producing any commercial arms since summer of 1940 due to their various foreign and domestic military contracts. This greatly limited the number of guns available to the commercial market.

This already existing paucity of small arms was compounded when the L-60 Limitation Order went into effect, freezing the inventory of small arms and restricting sales to only certain users.

An excellent example of this can be seen in correspondence between S&W, the War Production Board and Deputy Sheriff Boyle of Seminole County, Oklahoma.

In a letter to S&W dated 17MAY43, Deputy Sheriff Doyle indicates he is looking for a revolver and was told by his local office of the War Production Board that he would need to contact the factory. This actually a bit of a hand-off; Deputy Sheriff Boyle should have been instructed to contact the DSC but since the guns were stored and shipped by S&W for the DSC, it’s an understandable action. Deputy Sheriff Boyle included a copy of the War Production Boards letter with his correspondence to S&W as well as a copy of the L-60 Limitation Order, presumably provided by the WPB.








(A better copy and transcription of this order may be found in a post on this forum titled: L-60 Limitation Order – The Frozen Guns Order ( L-60 Limitation Order - The Frozen Guns Order )


S&W’s response is pretty typical of the one they sent to folks who requested a revolver during the war; contact DSC for authorization, provide an affidavit if you are an exempt person/organization and wait.





S&W’s response to these sorts of inquiries usually involved sending the writer a copy of the DSC form and affidavit.


The form provided is full of interesting things. First off, this is the -only- DSC form I’ve ever seen. For some reason it doesn’t appear in Col. Pate’s magnificent reference or in anything I’ve seen from Dr. Jinks. If anyone has seen a copy elsewhere, please let me know.





The first thing that jumps out with this form is the price of the gun. $28 for cops, $30.60 for guards, Special Police, etc. It’s worth keeping this price in my mind, as when I discuss the 4-inch to -2-inch conversion costs of $1.50, that represents an additional %5 cost. This will allow us a little modern perspective; if you bought a Model 10 today at the website price of $879, you’d be paying an extra $44 bucks to have it knocked down to 2-inch. Not a bad price really, although S&W did point out that they ate a little bit of the cost on this and you did NOT get to keep the 4-inch barrel!


There is nothing on the form to indicate the date is was published but I suspect it’s from very early in the war as it makes no mention of the availability of the Colt Commando and it refers to the S&W offering as “….38 caliber Special Smith & Wesson Military and Police Model Revolver; 4” barrel only; blued sand-blast finish; uncheckered walnut stocks; lanyard swivel in butt…” rather than as a Victory or “Special Defense Pistol”.


Also, notice that the form requests Government contract numbers if the concern is acquiring the arms relevant to a Government contract. This might explain some of the odd numbers we occasionally see stamped or electro-penciled onto some guns.


Once the form was mailed off, the applicant would eventually receive an acknowledgement. The one shown below is for the Oklahoma City Police Department and although it dates from March of 1945, it is still representative of the sort of reply that was sent.





Note that the acknowledgement is for 4-inch guns while a notation at the bottom of the page states that the supply of “…2” barrel Smith & Wesson revolvers is exhausted…”. This indicates that the Oklahoma City PD originally requested 2-inch guns. A review of other documents shows that the OCPD availed themselves of the S&W Repair Departments conversion plan and had two Victory revolvers (#621665 and #622657) furnished as 2-inch guns. This 4-to-2 conversion plan is something I’ll address in a later post but I feel it has very important implications for how we view the scarcity and presumed pedigree of 2-inch guns.

So, that’s how you requested a gun under the DSC system during the war.

Best,
RM Vivas

(Liked reading this? Thank the S&WHF! Join!)

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

One of mine went to the TVA.

Attached Images

	IMG_4708.jpg (67.0 KB, 55 views)
	IMG_4710.jpg (32.6 KB, 49 views)
	IMG_4715.jpg (46.6 KB, 49 views)

__________________
“What you got, ain’t new.”

I think I've seen repair orders on that gun.

I came across a rather long list of 9xx,xxx guns sent by TVA for overhaul/repair. I didn't save it because they were not V-series guns.

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Robert, great project.

The only DSC document I have seen is this one, DSC6001, which addresses three two-inch Victory models that were sent to the Chief of Police in Paris, TX in 1945. You may have this one already, but in case not...

Attached Images

DSC6001_notification.jpg (18.4 KB, 38 views)

__________________
David Wilson

I have some interesting S&W/DSC documents that I'll dig out and scan in the next day or two. One of them has the authorized breakdown of production and shipment between BSR, DSC and Navy guns.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

The gold standard is the documents that contain Serial number data.

I hit a motherlode a couple weeks ago when I came across correspondence for an order for 50,000+ M&P's to the Brits.

What made it gold was that the revolvers were packed 100 per case, there were 500+ cases and there was a SHIPPING INVOICE FOR EACH CASE WITH SERIAL NUMBERS!

They seem to all be in the 7xx,xxx range. Tells what case number had which gun and what ship, pier and date the guns were being shipped. Various addresses: British Ministry of Shipping, British Purchasing Commission, British Air Commission, etc.

Serial numbers are ROUGH to read, most are of a quality that you can't be %100 sure, but there are still several thousand that are pretty unmistakable.

At some point, probably a bit far down the road, I'll have to sit down and log them all into a database. It's probably a 1.5-2 year job, based on how long it took to do the NYPD records.

One thing that might be quite interesting is to make a list of the ships that transported and see which ones didn't make it. That would account for large gaps in extant samples.

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

This is great information. I appreciate the efforts you are making to bring this to light for the community.

Well Rob, You appear to have once again given new life to the collecting of Wartime era S&W Victory Models, along with the Colt Commando variant. I, and I'm certain a great many other Collectors, & Researchers deeply appreciate your dillegent efforts at educating us regarding the frequently overlooked 'minor' details which when assessed properly can speak volumes. THANK YOU

Regards, Dom Pastore Jr.

This thread is great! Thanks to RM and all others who have contributed.

I have records of a number of ships' manifests prepared for the British Purchasing Commission showing what went down to the bottom of the sea, on which ship, so that they could reorder. It's normally just quantities. My records are not complete for S&W .38/200 losses as I was focussed on finding something else at the time and they happened to be on the same ship.

Kind of makes you wonder how much influence the U-Boats may have had on this.

Stamp on the front of an envelope sent by S&W during WW2




My delving into DSC invoices is slowly progressing.

I say slowly because there are an awful lot of them.

Each shipment (with some exceptions I’ll get to in a minute) had an Order Number that is, I believe, the DSC Shipment Number. I have found correspondence from later in the war where reference is made to various shipments and a DSC Shipment Number is listed. When I go to the invoice with that number listed as ORDER, the numbers and end user match. Therefore, I believe and can substantiate that the entry on each form labelled Order is the DSC Shipment Number. This number is explained in post #1.

My observation so far is that these DSC Order Shipment Numbers are sequential and that they can be used to extrapolate some data figures with the caveat that these are extrapolations and not actually hard verifiable data.

There are several thousand pages of documents and not all are relevant to this project. Once the chaff has been separated from the wheat, one must still log the data into a searchable/sortable format. To give you an example of this, last night it took me 6 hours to make 100 data entries using the data fields shown in post #1. At the moment, my database has about 2,000 entries, approximately half of which have serial number data.

The lowest DSC Shipment number found thus far is DSC 383. The highest one I have seen thus far is DSC 6835. ----Presuming---- that the DSC Shipment Numbers are sequential, and that each shipment was assigned one, it would follow that there were ---at least--- 6,835 separate DSC shipments. A great many shipments were just one or two guns and the largest was 450 guns (Panter Ord. Plant ship date 08JUN42).

When we combine this with the various dates on the Invoices, we can create a rough graph of Victory shipment quantities. For example, if we see that on 01JUN42 the lowest DSC Shipment Number on that date is DSC 700 and on 30JUN42 the highest DSC Shipment Number on that date is DSC 1200, we could estimate that during June 1942 –-at least— 500 shipments of DSC guns were made. I can then pull up the number in each of these shipments and say “From 01JUN42 Shipment #700 to 30JUN42 Shipment #1200, an estimated total of x,xxx guns were shipped by S&W on behalf of DSC”.

The more Invoices I find between numbers 700 and 1200, the more accurate the figure becomes.

I find this to be interesting data that could be used in a number of ways.

The purpose of this post, however, is not to explain or discuss the machinations of this project (yet) but to share some interesting things I have observed thus far.

Dates And Shipping Numbers – A very interesting observation is that there are no DSC Shipment Numbers on invoices earlier than the last week of April 1942. All the invoices prior to this have the Order entry left blank. There are a couple hundred entries in my database right now from the last week of March 1942 up until approximately 24APR43 that have no DSC Shipment Number. I think one of the hardcore Victory/DSC folks should look at that. It’s my understanding that DSC would ship the guns in the beginning then switched to having the manufacturer ship them; I’m wondering if this is tied to that.

Government Orders – I was surprised to find a number of Federal agencies and military commands were getting guns through DSC. So far, I’ve seen at least 2,000 Victory revolvers going to the U.S. Maritime Commission. Other Federal groups include INS, U.S. State Department and similar agencies. I would have thought the Feds would not have had to go through the DSC (especially the Maritime Commission).

Quantity – While most shipments were for between one and ten guns, there were quite a few large shipments. The U.S. Maritime Commission shipments usually contained hundreds of guns and that is to be expected. Likewise, the shipment of 80 guns to Mack Truck Co. or 150 guns to North American Aviation also seem quite logical. It’s some of the less descriptive names that seem interesting. 200 guns to Todd & Brown, Inc. of Kingsbury, IN; 100 guns to the William J. Burns International Detective Agency of Washington, D.C.; 50 guns to the National Rifle Association (?). If one digs deeper on some of these, a little useful information can be gleaned; Todd & Brown, Inc. operated the Kingsbury Ordnance Plant in Kingsbury, IN. As an aside, their revolvers will be marked K.O.P. with a number (that info came from my related DSC project reviewing Repair Orders).

One of the most interesting invoices came to light last night and prompted me to throw this post together.

An unusual invoice:





Some oddities:

Notice that the Customers's Date, Date and Shipping Date (cropped out in this image) are all the same. this was not an order that languished on a desk for a few days! Someone with some pull placed this.

Under Order instead of having a typical DSC Shipment Number it simply reads “DSC Telg.”

Under Via, almost all other DSC orders simply had an X mark. Some Federal orders might indicate a specific railroad or military shipment but these are rare. None that I have seen thus far specified “Air X”

And of course, the destination “Coordinator of Information” (COI). Almost three weeks after these guns shipped, the COI was split into the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and the Office of War Information. Interestingly there was an officer named Frank Devlin assigned to the 101 Detachment of what would be the OSS. The unit was assembled in April 1942 and while there is no factual basis for such a fantasy, one can’t help but wonder if these ten revolvers went to that first OSS team.

Anyway, I’ve gotten up to June 1942 on the DSC invoices. It’s taking longer than I thought but some of the stuff one finds makes for great reading.

The real interesting stuff, the human interest stuff, is in the Repair Order and I am trying to do those at the same time as I am doing the Shipping Invoices. I’m just about done with them and have turned up about 1,000 serial numbers that are confirmed as Victory and about 200 that are likely Victory.

EDITED TO ADD: One thing I forgot to mention was that within the 2nd quarter of 1942 shipping invoices I did find an invoice for a single gun shipment that included a serial number: 999xxx. DSC was still shipping pre-victory guns thru at least April 1942.

EDITED (AGAIN) TO ADD: This is my 400th post!

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Robert,

Fantastic stuff, as we've come to expect from you. All non-military purchasers (and that includes the Maritime Comm.) had to go through the DSC. The Maritime Comm. built the Liberty and Victory ships being sent via Lend-Lease to Europe. Up to a certain point, the ships were equipped with Victory Model revolvers.

Pate reports the following numbers for DSC Handgun Procurement, 1941-1945:

S&W.....................85,000
Colt OP...................5,000
Colt Commando.....37,000
H&R Sportsman.......1,050

I look forward to your next installment.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I'm only up to the second quarter of 1942 but can account for about 12-13 thousand so far.

I'm really looking forward to when I have all the surviving invoices indexed as I can then chart shipment amounts and look for trends. Similarly, I will be able to sort by end user and date. Since many of these don't have serial numbers, the date search may be useful. A fellow has a historical letter saying his gun went to Southern Bell with a ship date of 01JUN42, I can search for everything DSC sent out on that date and maybe find the invoice even though it lacks a serial number. Lots of data sorting possibilities.

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Robert, it would be interesting to know if one of the 10 in the 5/21/42 shipment found its way onto the desk of William "Wild Bill" Donovan in the corner office...We may never know......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Donovan always struck me as a .38/44 HD or MAgnum guy. I can't imagine he would have a plain jane Victory. Perhaps a nicely finished and custom tuned pre-war M&P, -maybe-.

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

Maybe he could have used one for a boot gun...He probably didn't want foot sweat all over his primary......Ben

__________________
Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I ran across a Victory several years ago that lettered to Hercules Powder Company in Lawrence,Kansas. It was in the early 40's and my Dad worked there as a chemical engineer make rocket powder and other ordinance. My brother was born there during this time. My Dad later retired from Hercules after 38 years. I wanted to buy that Victory but unfortunately it was not for sale. I've got three of them, A Navy, U.S. Property, and a 5" 38 S&W that has an Austria Police marking on it. I am following this thread with much interest.

So far I’ve found three shipments to Hercules. Each shipment was for 100 guns.

Best,
RM Vivas

__________________
RM Vivas
SWCA#1482L, SWHF#837

You mention that some of the revolvers sent to the US Maritime Comm. were through the DSC. My factory letter states my Victory # V 486897 was part of a 100 gun shipment directly from S&W, Jan.3rd, 1944, to the US Maritime Commission @$20.60 each. No mention of the DSC. After the war, the revolver was sold to the Boston, MA Police Dept. and so marked on the grip frame B.P.D. 445-V.
Right on the butt near the V is a very tiny flaming bomb stamp. There are no USMC markings on the revolver. It also has the military Black Magic finish. Mr. Don Mundell prepared the letter.
Thanks for the great post. Big Larry

According to the factory letter my Victory revolver S# V82641
US maritime commission contract was shipped 9-11 44 to US
maritime commission Frisco Texas. No mention made as to
contract number or quantity of revolvers in shipment. It has
the flaming bomb on the butt and was billed at $21.00 and no
mention of DSC.

I've got another Victory that according to the factory letter was
a DSC contract, S# V244839, shipped 7-15-43, part of a 20 gun order. Order number DSC3774 and went to Ex-Marine
Guards Los Angeles. No mention of price.

Regards,
Dick

My Maritime gun was shipped to a different address than yours. It shipped to Reading, Pennsylvania. Big Larry

In the early days of the DSC they actually received the guns from S&W and then shipped them on to the ultimate customer. That practice was deemed inefficient and was changed such that the guns were drop-shipped directly to the defense plant, LEO, Maritime Comm. or other approved domestic entity.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Thanks for clearing that up. NOW, how did US Maritime guns get into the hands of the Boston MA PD after the war? These guns were bought and paid for by the Commission. With all the guns they had, I would surmise they went back to the factory, and were purchased back at S&W. The Commission had no way to sell these guns. Maybe a "deep dive" into my factory letter might tell me. The letter is very vague. Big Larry

I'm fairly sure they did not go back to S&W and maybe you know something I don't (not unusual) but I'm not sure why you say the Commission had no way to sell the guns. Lots of these handguns moved around after the war. There are Colt Woodsman pistols that were originally purchased by the Coast Guard that went to the TVA and finally to NASA in the 1960s.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I would just like to know how they did it. I bought this gun as it was, according to the letter, purchased?, by the Boston PD and marked as such after WW2. My interest lies in the fact that I lived there after WW2. My Dad was a returning Marine to the Boston Navy Yard. I was about 4 years old. Thanks, Big Larry

Larry - I'm confused. I thought you said (in post #30) it lettered to the Maritime Comm. Your post #36 (just above) indicates that it was "purchased?, by the Boston PD...." Are you assuming the Boston PD purchased it from S&W. If so, why? Please help the dumbest kid in school (me) understand.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

No. The factory letter states it went to the Commission in 1944. Whoever sent for the letter must have asked about the B.P.D. and number stamped deeply into the backstrap, and the answer was, it was sold to the Boston PD after the war. Nothing more. That's why I am considering a deep dive search from the Historical people. Maybe that is where the info came from. Big Larry

Gotcha. It was most likely marked by the BPD.

Sorry to Robert for the thread drift.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208