Revisited here and added more to my "documents".

Thanks a lot to all who provided this treasure trove.

__________________
Have guns...will shoot'em.

I noticed this has probably been overlooked.
BBHFarm Gallery :: Lyman's "Handbook of Cast Bullets", July 1958

It's Elmer Keith's and Ray Thompson's recommendations plus data on the 429421.

Agreed ... why play around when Skeeters load of 7.5 Unique does this...

(I did shoot it out of my 624 also but WILL NOT out of my 696 - probably too stiff for the L frame on a regular basis)

Thanks, Paul, for the wonderful flashback from those three pages taken out of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook of '58. I bought that little spiral book around 1959 or so when I was 20 and prob a sophomore in college. Those pages and others gave me a sense of peering into hitherto undiscovered secrets, as to which there were old masters who know it all and shared tidbits.

I noted then and now that many of the comments were from Montana and the west, rugged country that no doubt demanded rugged guns and rugged loads for - yes - wolves!! [see Thompson comments re 431244]

This is all part of the allure of the .44 Special - that when the chips were down, one wished for a cartridge, load and sixgun that would save the home, the children, the livestock and turn a night of terror into a day of counting fresh wolf pelts...

Thanks for sharing,

Dyson

"Agreed ... why play around when Skeeters load of 7.5 Unique does this...

(I did shoot it out of my 624 also but WILL NOT out of my 696 - probably too stiff for the L frame on a regular basis)"

Try shooting the Skeeter load out of a 3" Charter Arms Bulldog. It bites, even with rubber grips.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

If you looked through the manuals I have posted, you'll notice most of the reproduced pages deal with .38 Special and .357 Mag. The .357 Mag holds a special place with me, since I have several plus a couple of rifles. It wasn't until fairly recently that I began to get into the big bores, M57s, M625s and M629s.

I currently keep .44 Special wadcutters in the M629, but will probably do more with the .44 Special in the future. I can be assured the M629 is up to whatever .44 Special loads I decide on. However, there's always a need for more information to make those decisions. I probably need to make a special nested album for the articles and data pertaining to the .44 Special. If I do, the links I provided before won't work, but I'll repost the new album link if/when I do it.

Thanks to Dale53 we all have more reading material.
Here are the names of the five "new" files:

Brian Pearce on the 44 Special
NRA - Loads for the 44 Special
Ruger Lipsey 44 Special
Taffin - In Defense of the 44
Taffin Tests - 44 Special

They are located with the rest of them at the link below.

44 Special Articles

Thanks to Matt G, and to Dale 53, for the additional information for study and evaluation.

Some interesting details will award study, such as a reference to the 'Keith' load [#2400/240-250gr 429421] pressures compared to assertion in earlier article of the pressure being only around 20K. Having no particular horse in this race, I mention this simply to enliven interest. [I have never used the 'Keith' load, except to bend a Charter ejector rod.]

Thanks again,

Dyson

It's a shame that this data is getting buried. It really ought to be a "sticky" so it is available to anyone who is interested.

How about it, moderators?

Dale53

I agree, this deserves a "sticky".

Ever noticed this?
Sticky: Notable Thread Index

I put this thread there about noon, 1-2-12.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thanks for this designation for the thread. Hope many will consult and enjoy.

Regards,

Dyson

Here are 1st 5 pages. This is all the narrative included in my copy, and I believe my copy is complete. For an example of loads listed see next post.

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Here is a page of data for Keith designed 429421. The rest of the data included follows this format. I would not believe the pressures listed for a minute. Not sure if they were using balloon head or solid. *For informational purpose only. Do not use data*

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Many thanks to mike454 for posting pages from the 44 Associates!
I have to agree with that illustrious group of gentlemen - the 44 Special is, indeed, "Handgun Cartridge #1".
This thread just keeps getting better!

Jim

Mike454...Thank you!!!
I have taken the liberty of making a pdf file out of those 5 images you posted.
That file is now uploaded to the server and it's called 44 Associates.pdf
If that is a problem, let me know and I will remove it.

Thanks again.

Matt, The only problem is that they were posted by me in the wrong order. Image 4 & 5 should be switched. If you'd like I can email you the images that should be of higher quality, about 15 mb total. Pm me your email if interested. I got this copy of the 44 associates "44 special loads" about 15 years ago from John Taffin, don't know where he got it.

Hearty thanks for this new information, to all who are posting and assisting with images and posting. We rejoice to be closing this gap in our knowledge. And as we do, remember, as stated above, these loads are for information only and not for replication in some old [or even new] .44 Special.

Nonetheless, wouldn't it be great to have a pressure run on these loads, using authentic components.

Excellent!

Regards,

Dyson

Mike454, you have a pm.

First, I have fixed the pages in the 44 Associates.pdf file. They are now in the correct order.
Second, I have uploaded a new copy of the S&W Triplelock and the 44 Special Cartridge.pdf by Gordon Boser.
As anyone who has downloaded that file knows, it was a touch blurry and a little hard to read.
I found another source for that article and he came thru today.
The new uploaded copy is much easier on the eyes.

Mike454 was kind enough to send me the original scans for the 44 Associates compilation by Lawrence Newton.
I have created a pdf file from them and uploaded it to the server. It is a bit better quality than the copy that was there.
Thanks Mike!

Glad to help Matt. Interesting note: A number of people seem to thing that because there were 200 copies printed that there were 200 people in this group. I don't believe this to be the case. Newton in at least one issue of American Rifleman was selling copies of the load book in the classifieds for $1.

Great info....................

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Matt & Mike:

Do we know any of the living "members" of the .44 Associates so we can get some idea of how many people were interacting with each other? Are we talking one or two dozen individuals or many? Even though they printed 200 copies of the loading booklet it may have been a very small group ! ?

Jerry

__________________
.38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

If you look at the fifth page of the pdf file, you'll see the list of sources for all the data in the booklet.
I think it is a pretty safe bet that those individuals listed there were all members of the 44 Associates.
Now whether that is all the members or not, who knows.
By my count there are 14 individuals in that list.
Gordon C. Boser
George V. Chapman
Eric M. Farr
Elmer Keith
J.W. Landon
R.G. Mosgrove
F.C. Ness
Lawrence I. Newton
Capt. Philip B. Sharpe
J.A. Smith
George W. Spence
Ray C. Thompson
Norman P. White
O.L. Yancey

If there were other members, they didn't contribute any data that was included in this booklet.
FWIW...

Thanks to all those who are continuing this educational journey. I wonder of anyone here owns one [or more] of the very .44s that these .44 Associates used in their excursions into the frontiers of the .44 Magnum? Or if one of our numbers knows the location of such a gun, in addition to the EK .44, which I think is in a display. [Refresher needed.] It would be a hoot to locate and get a shooting report on such a piece.

Also wonder if a modern distributor would care to do a run of ".44 Associates 4" or 6.5" or even 5" .44 S&W Special N-frame non-lock square-butt revolvers? Like a Model 24-3, but perhaps marked '.44 Associates', yet made like an enhanced Model 29 but with short chamber for .44 Special.

Regards,

Dyson

I'd get in line for one. Definately.

On the fifth page of the informaton provided by mike454, under the heading "Source Identification", Lawrence Newton wrote that load entries labled with a source of "Assoc." came from "reliable data from 44 Associates files". And indeed one load with that source citation is shown on the page of loads provided by mike454. The informaton for this load must have come from someone, and likely from some other Associates member whose contribution was not as great as one of the 'named' contributors

The following appears a bit further down on the same page, under the heading "Acknowledgements":
"This compilation could not have been made without the ready cooperation of the several score big bore shooters who call themselves informally "44 ASSOCIATES". To each of them personally the editor acknowledges his debt and tenders sincere thanks, and especially is he grateful to those whose major contributions are evidenced by individual listing in the Source Identification table above." Since Mr. Newton refers to "the several score", it can be reasonably assumed that the .44 Associates numbered something in excess of 40.

In similar discussions on other boards I have seen the following additional men mentioned as having also been members of the 44 Associates: Parker O. Ackley, Julian Hatcher, John Lachuck, Earl Naramore, and Townsend Whelen.

Jim

Thanks for posting that information Triplelock.
I totally missed that "several score" statement.
Didn't read carefully enough!

Item 2: A member of another board, Zac0419, took an online article by Ross Seyfried on the Lipsey Ruger Flattop and made a pdf file of it.
I have uploaded that pdf file to the server.
Dale53 had reminded me of that article a while back by giving me a link, but I kind of forgot about it and didn't follow through.

Item 3: If anyone has trouble getting the pdf files to show properly in your browser, try right clicking the link and clicking "save link as" or "save target as" and then saving the file to your local hard drive and opening it from there.

Matt_G thanks for posting these articles on your website. An excellent asset for .44 Special fans!

I don't have a copy to send you, but Ken Waters did a "Pet Loads" article on the .44 Special in the May 1981 Handloader. It would be a fine article to include if someone has a copy available.

Hi Dyson,

A prototype (so to speak) of your desired gun has been produced by S&W. It is a 24-4.
I'm sure you're aware of "The Twelve Revolvers", a distributor exclusive shown in the SCSW 3rd edition. One of these revolvers was a 44 Spl and since it was not produced until 1990, well after the limited run of 24-3 .44s, it had all the features of the N frame enhancements of the period including the longer cyl stop notches. It was stamped 24-4. Unbeknownst to most but typical for dist. exc. guns, there were "over run" guns. I recently past up one for sale, but was sorely tempted since I have the same desire as you described. Ruger has made a set of 44 Assoc single action 44s for current living Assoc. members with a few "over runs" also floating around.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hello, Jim -

Thanks for your informative post. While having read on the "12", I had forgotten a .44 Special; nor did I know of overruns. You are quite right in saying that would have been a prototype for my suggested S&W. Perhaps drawings and CAD/CAM materials are yet known internally to S&W. With all the interest in the Ruger .44 Specials, blue, stainless, plow handle and Bisley, I should think S&W could attract more than a few buyers with newly minted Model 24s. [Why - they could even call them the New Triple Lock, substituting the IL for the middle lock on the TL. Kidding http://smith-wessonforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif..]

How about a run of 3", 4", 5" and 6.5"? [Or even just 3" and 5".] Everything from carry to hunting could be accommodated. Maybe a few pinto blue/stainless examples. Well, we can dream.

As to which, maybe a standard price loader such as Mag-Tech would undertake some +P, to bring down the cost of the .44 MiniMags offered by some notable small American loaders.

But, to return to the topic, the .44 Associates led the way for years; and their leadership is not forgotten. S&W - are you listening?

Best,

Dyson

I just took delivery of a new Ruger myself.
Bisley Flattop 44 Special.
I already had one of Lipsey's that were run a couple years back.
When I saw they did 'em with the Bisley grip frame I just had to have one.
Can't wait to get out to the range with it.

Sweet.... those Lipsey's .44's are a rare breed here in CA, I'm drooling on my keyboard..

__________________
Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

Resurrecting this one, with a page of loads for the .44 Special from the 1937 edition of Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading". I have tracked down a copy of Ken Waters' article from Handloading Magazine, and will post a copy when I get it thru the scanner.

TL

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Interesting thing about that chart is they specify seating depth, not overall length. Perhaps they were more attuned to effective case capacity than most of us today.

They probably were.
I liked Ken Waters Pet Loads article because he told of the remarkable accuracy of the 44 Russian and 44 special along with the amazing skill of some of the shooters.
A.L.A. Himmelwright’s book does the same.

__________________
William Iorg

Tip of the hat to TripleLock for his contribution of the Sharpe material from 1937. And thanks to everyone else who has contributed. Haven't had any PMs from S&W about imminent offering of NIL Model 24-4 N-frame .44 Specials!

Regards,

Dyson

The first four pages of Ken Waters' article on the .44 Special, which originally appeared in the May 1981 issue of Handloader Magazine.

TL

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And the final three pages of Ken Waters' article on the .44 Special.

TL

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This is great, I enjoy Ken Waters reporting and writing, he does his homework! Here is a picture of Sgt. W. C. Johnston Jr.
When you think that he shot the first perfect score in the U. S. at 50 yards using black powder in July 1888 and then went on to to shot SIX more tens just for fun.
No pressure, just another day at the range!

__________________
William Iorg

This article appeared, of all places, in the March 1917 issue of "The Scenic Lines Employees' Magazine" published by the Denver & Rio Grande - Western Pacific Railroad. A bit earlier than the "44 Associates", but definitely written by a .44 Special enthusiast.

TL

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I just discovered that I have a scanned PDF file of the Ken Waters article from the May 1981 Handloader that Triplelock posted.

It didn't get sent with the other pdf files that Matt G put on his server... I'll try to get it to him to add it to the collection.

update:

Matt... the file is too large to email, I'll send it to you via a CD like the others....

__________________
Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

This is a very interesting read - for a TRAIN magazine! I wonder if “COLOROW” was giving honor to the fictional Indian (Ute?) of the short stories and novels at the turn of the Century, or if he was simply thinking of the “hogs.”
Good stuff , as good as Recreation or Hunter, Trapper, Trader. Here is another copy - for us train guys.

The Scenic Lines Employes Magazine: Official Railroad Journal - Denver and Rio Grande-Western Pacific Railroad (Denver, Colo.) - Google Books

__________________
William Iorg

I got a CD in the mail yesterday from Gunhacker.
The Ken Waters article has been uploaded to server.
The file name is 44 SPL - May 1981 handloader.pdf

Thanks Conrad!

What a lot of old info for my .44's!
Thanks!!

It was mentioned in a previous post about " 2400 " powder changing , it's different than it used to be . I would personally like to see some proof of that . Don't tell me what some mag writer said , it's just another opinion .
I personally called Alliant several yrs ago about this subject . I talked to a VP . When I asked him if it had changed ? He replied " Not to my knowledge " and went on to explain that they have a sample of the original 2400 . He added , If they changed it , it would have to be called " 2300 " or " 2500 " . He said you can't just change the burn rate and keep the original name . Believe what you want , But what I posted is not my opinion , but the voice of someone at Alliant .
Elmer Keiths load in the 44spl using newer cases exhibited approx 25,000psi . It has been tested several times in later years and still has the same pressure rating . No Change !

My name's Larry and I'm a .44 addict.
Profoundest thanks to all who contributed to this wealth of .44 lore. I don't have a printer, but if the Associates' data ever sees a distributable printing, I will certainly be interested in a copy.

Larry