S&W 45 colt revolver

[apotter11]

I am having a problem figuring out this gun on a current auction. It is listed "SN-E212, Patent Date 10/8/1901, 12/17/1901, 2/6/1905" Barrel is marked left side "Smith & Wesson .45 Colt"
From reading the SCSW, this makes no sense to me.
What do you think?

Al

[Hoosier45]

Need more info... but if I had to guess a 2nd model HE in .455 that was shipped to England. It was converted to .45 Colt and they stamped "45 Colt" after Smith & Wesson on the barrel?

I updated my above comment. It's not original factory work. Lots of .455s were converted to .45acp or .45 Colt. Search the forum and you'll find several threads on these

[apotter11]

Limited pictures on the site, here are 2

S&W Barrel.jpg

S&W patents.jpg

[jebstuart]

Yep, it appears to be a British WWI purchased 2nd Model 455 HE but has been converted to 45 LC. The last 5 in the 455 barrel stamp was over stamped (hard) with the word Colt. The important thing to know is how it was converted. If the entire rear of the cylinder was shaved to accommodate the 45 Colt rim - that's bad because it will no longer fire the original 455 Webley cartridge it was chambered for. If on the other hand, only the charge holes (six individual chambers) were counter bored to accomadate the 45 LC rim, that's a handy conversion. 45 LC is easy to find, relatively cheap, is within the safe pressure range for this revolver and it will still fire the 455 Webley round. If you can see the rear of the cylinder and the serial number is present, that's how you will know it was converted properly, and you're good to go.

[Hondo44]

The seller has not listed the s/n, this # "E212" is a unit #. Ask for the s/n which is stamped on the bottom of the grip frame butt, bottom of barrel, back of cyl (if not machined off.) Those three locations should all match.

As Jeb posted above, it's a "455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" produced under contract with the British fro WW I. Just under 70,000 of this model were produced and shipped between 1915 and 1917.


You have a ".455 Mark II Hand Ejector - 2nd Model" which is the 3rd version described below under #3:


Many, many have been converted to 45 Colt or 45 ACP/AR.


THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group are actually 1st versions. “When” roll marked with the cal., they are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

The third version like yours is the British revolver named “MK II” for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
They are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455: 812 factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British there are 666 #s1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666). The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007.


2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63 duplicate serial #s with the 666 “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455, 1st version above.


3. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. and 2. above, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455, respectively.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

[jebstuart]

To: apotter11,
If you acquire this revolver or can see it, I would be interested in the serial number (last two digits xx if you wish). Many of these MkII 455's have no 455 caliber markings on their barrel. The marks appearance, or non-appearance seems random, but I'm inclined to believe they appear in "blocks" of serial numbers and I'm trying to justify the theory. Incidentally, I think the revolver discussed here is the first one I've seen re-stamped in this way (over stamp of the last digit "5" with closely spaced "Colt"). It's not the worst method IMO. Most re-chambered MkII's have the final "5" X'ed out and "Colt" or "LC" stamped in addition - or worse. Thanks for any help you can offer on the SN.

[apotter11]

I have to stop reading the auctioneer's description, to unreliable. E212 as an assembly number makes much more sense than just a misread number. Shouldn't there be a 1909 and 1914 patent dates? or does this not apply to the L frame.

Tempted to drive the 2 hours to the Saturday auction to get a better look at this gun. If so, I will report back.

Al

[jebstuart]

Originally Posted by apotter11

Shouldn't there be a 1909 and 1914 patent dates? or does this not apply to the L frame.

Tempted to drive the 2 hours to the Saturday auction to get a better look at this gun. If so, I will report back.
Al

No, the patent dates are correct for the British 455 MkII. The patent dates, ejector rod and caliber marks all show it to be what it is. It is N-frame not L-Frame. If you would like to PM me the auction link, I'll promise not to bid on it and I might glean a little more information for you, if you choose to bid.

[apotter11]

serial number is 65351, does not match cylinder or under barrel.
Right side of barrel has no markings, auctioneer did not see a star or other marks indicating S&W redo. There is a cross canon or some such above yoke on left, when auctioneer removed grips he says he sees two more like it.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by apotter11

serial number is 65351, does not match cylinder or under barrel.
Right side of barrel has no markings, auctioneer did not see a star or other marks indicating S&W redo. There is a cross canon or some such above yoke on left, when auctioneer removed grips he says he sees two more like it.

So, the number stamped on the butt, 65351, does not match the number stamped on the bottom of the barrel or the number stamped on the rear of the cylinder. Does the barrel SN match the cylinder SN?

[apotter11]

The auctioneer's eyesight was not sharp, he read 65351 on but; maybe 313317 on cyninder and about 9074 on bottom of the barrel. I would assums some sort of assembly line operation where a number of guns were disassembled, repaired and reassembled without much thought. The auctioneer could not identify S&W stars or rebuild dates on grip frame. He didn't understand assembly numbers and asked me the vintage of the gun.

Yes, I told him it was a 1914-5 export to Canada or England.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by apotter11

The auctioneer's eyesight was not sharp, he read 65351 on but; maybe 313317 on cyninder and about 9074 on bottom of the barrel. I would assums some sort of assembly line operation where a number of guns were disassembled, repaired and reassembled without much thought. The auctioneer could not identify S&W stars or rebuild dates on grip frame. He didn't understand assembly numbers and asked me the vintage of the gun.

Yes, I told him it was a 1914-5 export to Canada or England.

Interesting. The .455 series didn't go up to 313317.

[jebstuart]

Sounds like his eyesight is as bad as mine. I don't think you can trust any of those numbers, possible exception being the butt - maybe.

I've never seen that kind or mis-match on a 455 2nd model. Of coarse libraries are full of things I don't know.

[apotter11]

SWSC says .44 HE 2nd sn range from 15376 to about 59xxx.
.44 HE 3rd model 28358 to 61412
.44 HE 3rd model postwar transitional S62489 to S75000

Your turn, what is this gun!? sounds like a hands on evaluation is required.

[jebstuart]

Originally Posted by apotter11

SWSC says .44 HE 2nd sn range from 15376 to about 59xxx.
.44 HE 3rd model 28358 to 61412
.44 HE 3rd model postwar transitional S62489 to S75000

You're talking about two different critters here. The 455 MkII 2nd model SN's range from approximately 5,000 to 75,000, continuing from the 1st model (Triple Lock). That's why I think the butt serial number the man gave you "might" be trustworthy. It's the largest serial number on the revolver - helpful if you have poor eyesight.

I couldn't find the auction from the PM you sent. Go to the revolver on your computer, hi-lite the web address, right click & copy it and paste it in another PM. I'll try to take a look.

Update:
I got a look at it. Now this is just my take. The stocks are much later football cut-outs and appear to have been mangled by someone, they're worthless. The original deep dished, gold medallion pre-war stocks contribute considerably to the valve of these revolvers, IMO. The liberally aquired pitting is deep & plentiful. The knurled mushroom ejector rod knob looks to have had pliers applied to it - aggressively. It stands at $500 right now and there will be a buyers premium. There's no way of knowing if it's mechanically sound without a considerable road trip. This revolver would not be for me - not a good investment. That said, I already have a shooter grade 2nd model with a proper 45 LC conversion (by someone else, so my conscience stays intact while being happy about it). So, you'll have to follow your own intuition here. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Hondo44]

So;

1. We have a 455 HE -2nd Model frame with a proper 2nd model serial #65351 on the butt, with a stamp indicating it was exported at one time.


2. With clearly a S&W 455 stamped 2nd model barrel, over stamped 45 Colt with mushroom knob/matching barrel cutout, alleged # 313317 and # matching cyl.

Since it still has the s/n, the cyl has had the chamber mouths recessed (if done the preferred way) or the recoil shield shaved to headspace 45 Colt.

But the 6 digit s/n is not possible for 455 parts; likely misread and an extra digit added. Possibly he's reading the B for blue as a 1st digit 3 and the actual # is 13317. This is a valid # for a 455 2nd Model.


3. I'll speculate that the 455 barrel and cylinder came from another 455 2nd Model with a 5 digit # resembling 313317 and transplanted into this frame before or after the 45 Colt modifications.

Possibly the owner wanted to retain the unmodified matching barrel and cyl from #65351, that was subsequently separated from the gun and/or later sold by a new owner.

I don't know where the price is going on the auction but I see nothing wrong with this 2nd model as a fine shooter. Because of mismatched s/n it may go for a good price. And if the chambers were recessed for the 45 Colt, it will still shoot the original 455 cartridges safely as well.

[jebstuart]

Ok, there is no "C" encased "broad arrow" showing Canadian receipt, so let's assume, from your auction guy conversation that it's purely British use. There are no BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof) markings, or any other visible foreign proofs visible on the cylinder or barrel, so lets assume the barrel/cylinder swap was done after arriving back home (it's USA birthplace). The British inspection marks now hidden by the inappropriate target grips will almost certainly be a "^"(British acceptance mark), "Crown" (Regina Victoria), "E" (Enfield Arsenal) & II (Model 2). The conversion barrel & cylinder match numbers, thanks to Sherlock (Hondo44) Holmes - guy is amazing. His take, as I understand it is, if you could acquire this revolver at a reasonable number, it would make a fine shooter and I couldn't agree more. This is a very early N-Frame, steeped in history & 45 Colt is hard to beat for any situation. But understand that you'd be buying a "truck gun" & a big non consealable one at that. If you're considering it, I would make the drive, check function and go in with eyes open. All said and done - my advice would be: take Hondo44's advice. He's the last word on all things revolver, as far as I'm concerned.