This is one of the last pre-war .32 RP targets, #530102 shipped 7/37. With the short 4.25" barrel, it shares many parts with the 196 targets assembled post-war.



Bob

Beautiful!! That is the first one of those I have ever seen. What a perfect Kit Gun.

Wow that’s a dandy!

Yes very similar to mine, one of the group of 196 in 1957.

Mine has the same sights,
post war sliding bar safety hammer block,
Straight extractor rod knob,
4” barrel,
Standard post war thumbpiece, not the flat latch,
grooved trigger,
and post war grip checkering pattern and medallions.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here are two of the 196 32 RPTs made post war!


I had another one that had the flat medallions and was in a later solid boarder blue box, numbered to the gun! S&W was definitely using up left over parts and pieces!
jcelect

I've told this tale before, and the only reason I'm able to do it is because Herbie Harris (H. H. Harris Co., Chicago distributor) took me under his wing, so to speak, in the later 1950's, when I was a kid working part time in a St.Louis area carriage trade gun store. Herbie can be credited with the creation of the "Pre-war-Post War" .32 RPT's. I say creation, more like the existence.

It all started with the discovery of 200 barreled frames in a dark, dusty corner of a S&W warehouse. The answer to the question of "What the hell can we do with these things?" came from Harris. He was known for his fondness of weird guns, non cataloged barrel lengths seeming to be his specialty, but his retail store was the candy store to end all candy stores----starting off with presentation grade grips on every gun on display; then a complete selection of engraved guns to go along with all the odd-ball barrel lengths.

He tells of a call from S&W, telling him of this discovery of these barreled frames, and asking him for ideas of what to do with them. Scrapping them was high on S&W's list. He said he told them to finish assembling them with pre-war parts, finish them in Bright Blue, and he'd take all of them.

They did, and he did.

I got my first one from him--after driving 600 miles out of our way on our honeymoon in 1959---$135. That little side trip was my new bride's first real introduction to the world of lunatic fringe gun collectors. She's managed to survive the ongoing ordeal ever since!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph,
That’s a great historical anecdote. Thx for sharing.

It does raise a question:
The .32 pre war RP targets with short barrel are 4 1/4” like red9’s. But all of the 196 post war RP Targets have 4” barrels with the front sight base forged one piece with the barrel. The 4 1/4” barrel was standardized at 4” in 1952 on the Improved I frame-2nd version (ramp front sight and barrel rib).

Did S&W make new 4” barrels for the 196 RPTs?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

"200 barreled frames"-------in that "dark, dusty corner"---as in Nope!

That said, I came along later and only know what I was told by Herbie----"barreled frames".

RCT

My point is, how would old pre war barreled frames have 4” barrels instead of 4 1/4” barrels?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

A reasonable question! Best of luck coming up with an answer from the deep, dark past.

Another question from the same church, but different pew, is how come my first one had a sliver left in the white along side the rear sight tang channel? The answer to the ensuing dilemma came from a Birchwood Casey Touch-Up Pen (cold blue)---------a perfect match after several applications. I was very pleased with myself---and with the pen!

Ralph Tremaine

The plot thickens. Now I need to check the sight channel on my RPT. Although I’m pretty sure I would have noticed that.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You gents have me very envious of your 32 Kit Guns. I'm long of tooth now but would appreciate owning one or several of these target sighted 32's, even at my advanced age, very nice, indeed! My compliments & thanks for posting their photographs.

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

Ralph sent me the SAT, he found it after selling his revolver some time ago and offered it to someone who had the gun but not the tool.
I have managed to reluctantly refrain from shooting mine .

Regards,

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turnerriver

That’s a beauty alright! But I would not refrain from shooting it a little, they are a real joy! It’s obviously been shot and with care it will not show it. Just don’t holster it.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

You for sure would've noticed it! It wasn't in the sight channel, it was along side---as in on the top strap---right out in front of God and everybody----right where I would have noticed it---IF I'd bothered to open the box, and unwrap the gun. At that point, Herbie would have simply given me another gun.

All this comes under the heading of "Too soon we get old, and too late we get smart!"----------and I wasn't even old---not all that smart as it turns out either! BUT---"All's well that ends well!"

RCT

They are cool odd guns for sure.

Mine may be the oddest.
It has a u notch rear and marbles white bead front.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

And this gun carries a 657 serial number prefix, yes?

Ralph Tremaine

More to the point of my curiosity, if it's a 657 prefix, is it lower than 657174 or higher than 657369?

The point of all this is they started out with 200 barreled frames---and ended up with 196 completed guns. There were no complex machining operations remaining to complete these guns----nothing other than fitting yokes, cylinders, and internal bits and pieces, and the finishing process---nothing that might call for scrapping a gun (nothing that comes to mind anyway). So what became of the remaining four guns? Well, maybe they gave them away to deserving souls. Maybe they made up some "specials". This gun right here qualifies as a special---different anyway. Now there's nothing difficult about swapping out a rear sight blade---child's play. Messing with the front sight goes some beyond child's play---unless you have a milling machine in the basement---or you're REALLY handy with hand tools. The folks at King messed with fronts on a regular and frequent basis---but the folks at King were elsewhere after 1955. The possibilities are many, and I'm a nosy sort!

Can a guy still get one of these for $135???

Not likely!

My first one was $135----list price at the time.

My next one was 30 some odd years later---and the going price for as new was $2,000.

And here I am at a funky Knoxville gun show that's not worth the time or gas money---but I've got nothing better to do on this Saturday. (A funky gun show is one with 4-500 tables I go through in 45 minuted to an hour---never slowing down, much less picking anything up to look at it.)

To make matters worse, it's August, it's hotter than dammit---and the air conditioning is busted!

I'm through, and headed for a friend's tables to pick up my traveling library---and head for home. Here's a sign at a stair well: "MORE TABLES UPSTAIRS"

Screw it! It'll be hotter up there than it is down here, and there won't be anything up there worthwhile anyway! Up I go! There's 14 tables in a U around the landing. I stop right there, and scan. There's a worthwhile looking S&W something on the far table on the left.

Over I go. This something looks for all the world like one of those 196 .32 RPT's---and it's as new. The bad news is I can't remember that serial prefix---657. The worse news is my traveling library is downstairs, and there's no way in hell this guy is going to let me go waltzing off with his gun in my hands------and there's no way in hell I'm going to put it down!

That's because of what's written on the tag: "22/32-.32 Caliber-$450"

Screw it! This thing is worth $450, no matter what it is! I give the man his money, and saunter over to the stairs, and run down them as fast as my little legs will carry me! I arrive at my friend's tables, and point to my briefcase-----didn't say a word! Friend says, "Looks like Ralph's got a goodie!"

I know which book these things are in ("History"). I know the page number (156), but I can't remember that damn serial prefix!! I look, and then give a fist pump! Friend says, "Yep, Ralph's got a goodie!!

And Ralph sure enough did have a goodie!!

Now all this is when I'd been collecting S&W target guns for 30 years or so---had maybe 135 of them---with just one small problem. I'd defined "target gun" as anything with target sights---and was about to come to the realization I didn't have a collection that told any story, or displayed any history to speak of---just an accumulation of guns with target sights---and it only took me 30 years to figure that out! Yeah, I know---DUMB!!!

I sold A BUNCH of guns---and started over. This time I collected target guns that a serious competitor might choose to use in an important match-----from the very beginning to the end of the 5 screws---ended up with maybe 65 guns, and even then I cheated some. I had at least one each of all the pre-war N frames---and even some post-war N frames---and was hard pressed to remember seeing more than a handful of N frames being used at any match---but I'm fond of N frames.

The good news is I'd had A BUNCH of Herbie Harris's odd balls, and they sold like HOTCAKES!! That came to be because he kept calling me right up until he went out of business---same message every time: "I've got a such&such you've got to have!"---same message as when he called me about my first pre-war/post war .32 RPT 30 years earlier.

Ralph Tremaine

Hi Ralph
This shows just how odd this one is.
The rear sight is 657108

My odd 32 target,The letter,and some help with what I don't understand

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Well, I'm no help!

The number on the sight says it's from the same era as the 196 "pre-war/post-war" guns, but not part of them (and almost certainly not part of the originally stated 200)----because the serial numbers of the 196 guns are consecutive---start to finish---and it figures the numbers of the missing four were too. (And has already been suggested along the way, maybe there never was 200---that could very well be a SWAG employed at the time of the original conversation between S&W and Harris----perhaps because the barreled frames were in the same size crate used for 200 guns.) That bears considering because trying to explain how the "missing" four guns left 196 consecutively numbered guns starts serious short circuits in my brain.

I'm left with quoting a favorite line of Roy's----employed when he's totally bumfuzzled about something: "They would do anything anybody would pay them to do!"

Ralph Tremaine

Hi Paul, it’s great to see your very special .32 RP Target once again!

Just to clarify, does it have a factory rework date stamped on the left side of the grip frame? If not perhaps it was rebuilt by an employee for himself and the reason Roy couldn’t find a factory work order for the gun’s rebuild. But the original gun's serial # stamped on the butt is a factory protocol. The aftermarket front and rear sight blades may have been added at the time of the rebuild or at a later date.

Another thought to add to our original assessment from your 2016 thread:

Your gun may help explain the quantity difference between the 200 dusty old frames found and the 196 guns completed and shipped in 1957. Yours presumably to have been 657108 (based on the rear sight number) is not in the 196 serial range but perhaps neither were the other 3 dusty old frames.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Bob, that's a fantastic revolver, and only the fifth Pre-WWII RP Target known to me with a 4.25 inch barrel. The others are 259153 (1917), 456525 (1927), 517950 (nickel, ship date unknown), and 532759, shipped in 1938.

The last shipment of a prewar RP Target that I know of was 530999 in March 1939. I have no data on barrel length for that one.

The last large (or large-ish, given their scarcity) production run of RP Targets seems to have occurred as early as 1930 with a few serial numbers clustered in the 5189xx -5190xx range. These are all believed to be of standard configuration with the six-inch barrel. At least one of those was not shipped until 1938. The next encountered serial number above that range is 526257 (barrel length not known), ship date unknown.

After 519082, the last four known RP Target serials are separated enough to be special orders. No production clustering is evident.

I have just under five dozen RP Targets in my data base. In the production range of 1917-1940, I suspect that not more than a thousand and perhaps only 800 were produced.

Nothing in this note has anything to do with the 196 postwar RP Targets with the 657xxx serial numbers.

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David Wilson

Were any of the .32 RP Targets built with a 3 1/4" barrel?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hi Jim
No it didn't have any rework stamps.
The barrel was also not numbered.

I don't think we ever looked at the barrel markings on it but the ampersand isn't lazy if that is the right term and it matters at all.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

The pre war post war Transitional model barrels have the patent dates. The 196 guns do not.

I don’t know which ampersand the 196 have, I’ll have to look.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

With S&W I won’t say they didn’t but I’ve never seen or heard of one.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Just because the prewar barreled frames became .32 Targets some years after WWII doesn't mean the company had initially envisioned that future for them. S&W used four inch barrels on their prewar .22/32 Kit Guns.

If the abandoned barrels were little more than barrel blanks, that would let Herbie Harris order them to completion as the guns he thought he could make a bigger profit on in a slightly larger caliber.

It would also allow the prewar barrels and frames to be marked under the policies that prevailed at the time of their later assembly. The absence of copyright dates need not be taken to indicate postwar manufacture.

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David Wilson