|
|
03-18-2024, 10:12 PM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,914
Likes: 995
Liked 19,050 Times in 9,317 Posts
|
|
Victory Model "Red Navy" closed auction
It looks to be a legitimate and nice example. And look at the winning bid!
Just a moment...
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
|
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-20-2024, 11:27 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,936
Likes: 511
Liked 1,971 Times in 508 Posts
|
|
Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.
__________________
SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"
|
03-21-2024, 10:24 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 269
Likes: 263
Liked 814 Times in 115 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony
Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.
|
I was watching this auction and noticed the poor fit also. It is a bit off putting IMO. I was frankly surprised the auction even drew a $2500 starting bid, much less ended over $3k.
|
03-21-2024, 10:37 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 190
Likes: 415
Liked 597 Times in 79 Posts
|
|
I have one that I’ll happily sell for that!
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-21-2024, 11:28 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 3,246
Liked 3,863 Times in 1,968 Posts
|
|
Unfamiliar with the “Red Letter” Navy Victory Models? You learn something new everyday I suppose.
__________________
Some Might Say.
|
03-21-2024, 11:32 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 365
Likes: 311
Liked 522 Times in 184 Posts
|
|
That is ridiculous.
|
03-21-2024, 11:42 AM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,914
Likes: 995
Liked 19,050 Times in 9,317 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valmet
Unfamiliar with the “Red Letter” Navy Victory Models? You learn something new everyday I suppose.
|
A relatively small number of late prewar .38 M & Ps and early VMs had the extra markings applied, probably at the military arsenal or base level, and red paint applied. No known estimated numbers and the Navy obviously didn’t document them, they were busy with other stuff.
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-21-2024, 12:08 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,644
Likes: 242
Liked 29,159 Times in 14,099 Posts
|
|
There has always been some mystery about these Red (and sometimes White) Letter revolvers. The presumption is that they were not engraved at the factory, but rather at some unknown Navy facility or facilities where they were sent. And that is about all. There is no hard evidence of anything regarding their actual origin(s) and how many exist, at least nothing I have ever seen. And it is certainly possible that at least some could have been spuriously engraved. Anyone with an engraving machine and some paint could easily add the exact same legend to an early revolver. And there is no way to detect that. You need an abundance of faith to pay that price for a Red Letter revolver. I do not have that much faith.
Last edited by DWalt; 03-21-2024 at 12:33 PM.
|
03-21-2024, 01:24 PM
|
|
Administrator
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,025
Likes: 9,001
Liked 48,771 Times in 9,262 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony
Enlarging the photos, the thing I notice is while the right stock appears to be correctly numbered to the gun, the fit of both is atypically poor. I'm not sure why that might be so, but it's to the detriment of the piece. However, the hammer price implies that for at least a couple collectors, that detail didn't matter.
|
That number was faked.
The numbers are too large and they are the wrong font.
There are a gazillion UN-numbered Victory grips around that were made as spare parts.
__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-21-2024, 02:32 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 676
Likes: 1,151
Liked 669 Times in 259 Posts
|
|
So, if the numbered stocks are fake, then perhaps the "Red Navy" engraving is as well ? Are Red Navys US Property GHD stamped ?
|
03-21-2024, 03:24 PM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 26,914
Likes: 995
Liked 19,050 Times in 9,317 Posts
|
|
It would take an in-person look to tell a legitimate vs. fake mark. They use(d) different techniques but I will not make it easy for the fakers by describing the fakery.
I have not seen a later (G.H.D.) stamped gun with red markings but never say never.
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
Last edited by murphydog; 03-21-2024 at 03:25 PM.
|
03-21-2024, 04:40 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 4,035
Likes: 3,246
Liked 3,863 Times in 1,968 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpage
So, if the numbered stocks are fake, then perhaps the "Red Navy" engraving is as well ? Are Red Navys US Property GHD stamped ?
|
When I Google it a handful of the pics come from Pre98.com as a source. They’re pretty well known shysters. Unsure about the one linked in the OP
__________________
Some Might Say.
Last edited by Valmet; 03-21-2024 at 04:41 PM.
|
03-21-2024, 05:18 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,749
Likes: 1,642
Liked 9,152 Times in 3,380 Posts
|
|
Is the OP revolver a good example of the 'Military Black Magic Finish' that the factory letter mentions.
Looks more of a Phosphate gray to me, but in reading about the different finishes on these, I just get more confused.
Should the ser# on the grip panel have been stamped at the same time and with the same stamps in hand as the rest of the ser#'s on the metal parts?
In other words, what was the procedure in the Factory. Were the grips done later? I agree it looks like a different stamp set/font.
The way oversize grip panels alone would have me standing back. It's difficult to rationalize that glaring fault away.
But then again I'm not in the market for $3K Victorys.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-21-2024, 05:56 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,644
Likes: 242
Liked 29,159 Times in 14,099 Posts
|
|
Early WWII M&P Military revolvers had the standard S&W polished bright blue finish. That transitioned to a wire brush prep followed by S&W's standard bluing. Then to a sand/bead blast metal prep, and blued by a different hot dip oxide process called Black Magic, also referred to as "Midnight Black." That could be done far more quickly than using the standard peacetime S&W bluing. Wartime revolvers from 1942 onward received the Black Magic finish. A very small number of early revolvers were given a Parkerized phosphate finish.
I don't know the situation on the grips, but they should have been finished flush with the grip frame then serial numbered with the rest of the gun.
Last edited by DWalt; 03-21-2024 at 06:56 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-21-2024, 08:47 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 9,597
Likes: 3,715
Liked 8,952 Times in 3,558 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Should the ser# on the grip panel have been stamped at the same time and with the same stamps in hand as the rest of the ser#'s on the metal parts?
|
I would think not. The gun assemblers and the stocking department were two different areas of the factory so I would think that it could be possible that a different set of stamps was used. Fonts should be from the same era however. Something that maybe Dr. Jinks could elaborate on.
These were used by the military and many went through a service armorer where reinstalling the correct stock panels may not have been of huge concern. Very possibly, if not faked, the numbered stock found its way back because it was numbered however a left panel without a number could have merely been picked from a pile.
A lot of fakery has gone on over the years and I recall that there was one dealer on the west coast that was famous for things like this.
Once a gun leaves the factory, all manor of things can be done. It's a real shame because it takes away some of the credibility of a real one.
__________________
James Redfield
LM #497
Last edited by JSR III; 03-21-2024 at 08:49 PM.
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|