Saw it today at a gunshop. Military proofed on the left upper side. Matching numbers on cyl., barrel and frame. US Property on the bottom near the lanyard loop. .38 Special on the left barrel but no US Property on the bottom of the barrel. Sorry no pictures yet. I know there will be a chorus of made by bubba. But it is all original blue. My question is has anyone seen another 1917 in .38 Special?

Does it have a shrouded barrel, like a .38/44 Heavy Duty?

I kinda remember a 1917 converted to .38 being shown here on the Forum a number of years ago.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Photos would help here.

Several possibilities. A K frame model of 1902 with ".38 S & W Special and U.S. Service CTG" on the left barrel. A WW II era .38 Victory Model but also a K frame. Or as MG mentioned, an N frame conversion of a .45 1917 Army with a .38/44 barrel and cylinder.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Why are you calling it a 1917?

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Formerly Model520Fan

Post pictures. Sounds like a K frame 38 to me.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Are you positive you know exactly what you're looking at? Without photos or a better description, there is no way for us to tell.

It may be a 1917 or it may be a 38 S&W Special but it is NOT a factory 1917 in 38 S&W Special.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Ok thanks for the info. I will take my own minty U.S. 1917 in .45 ACP with me for a second look at the 38. But it is not a K frame. Will update next week.

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I would have to see a good, detailed photos of the questioned revolver before I would even consider it being a 1917, modified or not! I would bet that it was mis-identified by the LGS or other entity that has it for sale. The only other reasonable explanation is that it is a military 1917 converted to .38 Special by replacing the barrel and cylinder with those parts from a
.38-44 Heavy Duty. If that is the case bottom of the barrel definitely would not be marked United States Property as the 1917s were.

It is no trick to re-stamp an un-numbered replacement barrel and cylinder so the numbers match the frame. It is highly un-likely that the font would properly match the font that S&W would have used for those parts if this is the case.

What he said!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

When I see it next week I will look closely at that replaced parts idea. Makes sense.

The description sounds like it may be similar to my British .455, which has the barrel and chambers sleeved to .38 Special. There is no serial number on the cylinder, indicting that the rear was slightly shaved. The work was very well done and it is difficult to see the sleeves. The change in caliber is not marked and there are no British commercial proofs to indicate that the conversion was done in England.




Bob

I have a 4 inch NS .455 that was rebarreled/recylindered to 38 sp. A real sweatheart to shoot.

The .38 special 1917 was re-examined today. It was in my opinion reworked at Smith. Factory workmanship, not bubba. The cylinder is matching with no rework and no sleeves. The barrel is matching too. Both look like hand numbered and no numbers ground off. The barrel is a commercial .38 Special 6.5" that is period correct style, font and original blue. No rework star or dates inside on the grip frame. Total blank there.
I suppose a decent gunsmith could also have done this work. But it would have have to have been back in the days when one could get an un-numbered and original Carbonia blue barrel and cylinder. About impossible to get nowadays.

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Not a 6 1/2"?......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I did not measure it so it must be 6.5"

Heavy duty barrel and cylinder fitted to a 1917 frame. Wouldn't be hard to do.

Please expand on why it was hard to do. I do believe you! Just more details please.

I think SS meant to type that it "wouldn't" be hard to do.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Yes I agree, not too hard. Just get an original finish cylinder and get an original finish barrel that are un-numbered. Get some S&W font number punches and add the serial numbers. And then just drop them in.
Not sure if those cylinder and barrel parts are readily available now? Not sure if most people would go to the trouble of adding the serial numbers? But S&W would for sure?

Agree, I doubt even a master gunsmith would have gone through the trouble of serializing the barrel and cylinder to match the frame.

Don't know if you're planning to buy it, but an SWHF records search (after a letter of authenticity) may turn up information on it.

So the thread title could be "S & W 1917 US Military 'converted to' .38 Special with Matching Numbers".

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Keep in mind that in the last century if you were sent to the S&W armorers school your final project was basically a custom build of your choosing based on available parts. The first 22 Mag J frame I ever saw was the results of a police armorer building one as his class project, before 22 Mag J frames were offered. This could have been someones class project.

Will you get a S&W Letter and solve the mystery?

Consider this, after WWI, the Army required S&W to buy back any unused parts that were accepted prior to the end of the war. This included barrels, hammers, frames etc. This could have been one of those frames. At some point, after 1930 (based on the barrel), S&W received an order for an N frame in 38 S&W Special, pulled this old frame and built a revolver.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I have a bunch of alpha numeral punch sets from 1/8" up. But, I have never numbered any parts. But, wouldn't be that hard.

I do agree the best way to be positive if it is factory if the route you suggest

Possible...but prewar 6.5" .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers exist, so if factory this was more likely a customer request.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Heavy Duty Model was introduced in 1930, so, yes, we are both in the area.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I do not own the gun, and it is not for sale by the gunshop owner. About the frame, it has 2 US Military acceptance proofs so I doubt it was left over parts that were used by the factory. I have no interest in the gun other than it is an interesting build.

This is much like my 1917 that was converted to 44 Special with the replacement barrel and cylinder properly numbered but no star or date on the grip frame. Letter and HS search could not document a factory rebuild.

Enlarge this pic of the ser# on the rear face of the cylinder and you can see
that it was hand cut/engraved,,and not punch stamped into place.
Kind of shakey going round the curves and uneven in height of characters. Easy to see it was hand engraved.


Who ever did the work likely took a 'pattern' from a like size orig ser# on another part (Yoke?) and then transfered the pattern to the cylinder. Then cut that.
That gives you (the engraver) the correct font size and style to copy w/o having to try and duplicate it by drawing it by hand.
The quality of the finished product is all up to the skill of the individual engraver.

The same technique is used to copy lettering that is damaged, faded or otherwise going to be gone over during polishing/refinishing/restoration.
The 'pattern' is then used to lay the lettering (or figure) back down on the surface in the correct position and then cut by hand.

Patterns are re-useable if handled with reasonable care. These are not the commonly seen 'smoke pull' reverse image prints. Those are nice to look at but practically useless IMO for replicating work.

I agree the new numbers are a poor job. But not sure I agree they were engraved. The top leg of the 5 for example is very squared ended and looks stamped to me. The barrel serial looks like it was stamped over a pre-existing serial number. Again poor job that makes me think it is an outside job not factory.

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AFAIK, the frames that S&W bought back from the government after WW I were not serial numbered. These frames have standard serial numbers in the prewar N frame series.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Yes! You had to special order a HD 6 1/2 bbl, pre WWII

What I am unsure of is did both prewar and post war have the same identical rollstamps? If not it would help with a time line of conversion.

Muley Gil,

When in the process did they serialize the frames? Did the Army accept un-numbered frames?

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

It is my understanding that S&W sold complete, unserialized numbered frames to the US Government. If a 1917 suffered damage to the frame, it would be rebuilt using a new frame.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

But in the case of this gun it is serial numbered on the butt and also marked US Property there and also has 2 separate Springfield Armory acceptance marks on the frame. So this gun was accepted into the US Military for the start of its life.

It is an interesting build and I have no interest in it either.

But thank you for sharing with the Forum.

Are you sure about this? Very surprising, if true.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I guess this was possible but unlikely. S&W would serialize a barrel for example if the revolver needed to be re - barreled. Would the USA send in a revolver needing a new frame? I don't know, seems unlikely.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

I wish I could remember where I read this. I had it saved at one time, but with several computer crashes through the years, stuff disappears.

But why else would the military stockpile parts like frames if not to replace them, at the armorer level or at Springfield Armory? It's not like the army is going to send a faulty revolver back to S&W.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My thoughts only, if the revolver is damaged to the point the frame needs to be replaced, issue a new one from supply and salvage what can be salvaged off the damaged one. But… I was a LE Armorer, not military.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

While I do not collect 44 S&W Special revolvers, I know there are more than a few with acceptance marks on the frame. Someone with more experience there may be able to provide an image or more information.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I would guess the .44's with military acceptance proofs are guns like this one that was a military redone by someone into a commercial caliber. Pictures of the OP's gun in question.

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