Can someone please tell me just what I've got here? It's listed as a "pre 10" at the shop but I'm pretty sure that's not the whole story. It's a K-frame, 5 screw, 38 Special, six shots, fixed sights, square butt, service stocks, bulb on the ejector rod, no address line on the frame, and address/patent numbers on the right side of the barrel. S/N is 247791, no prefix. There is a star on the butt indicating, I understand some kind of work at the factory, maybe a refinish. Mechanically it's fine. Color case on the hammer and trigger looks good. Roll marks look sharp to me...it's just a lousy picture. There are a few scratches and dings. And my wife likes it.





I'm just kinda curious. I'm not really up on some of these older examples. Any idea on a date? I kinda THINK I know what it is and when, but I thought I'd ask.

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John 3:16 .

Given the serial number and the large monogram on the left side, I'd suggest just before we entered WWI. Maybe circa 1915.

The stocks are period correct and probably original.

And yes, it has been back to the Service Department. If you can check the left side of the grip frame (under the stocks) you will probably find a service date.

The last patent date on the barrel should be Dec. 29, 1914.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I am not a K frame wizard so… What I see is an older M&P (Meat and Potatoes) 38 S&W Special.

But, if your wife likes it I hope you put it on lay-a-way.

Apparently, I type slow!

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

It is a Model 1905 .38 Hand Ejector 4th change, AKA a Military and Police or M&P. Assuming the stocks are original to the gun they date to the 1910-1920 era. It isn't a pre-anything, just an M&P made before the model had the model number designation added to the model in 1957. The same gun, originally introduced in 1899, is still manufactured by S&W 125 years later, just with several "improvements" in the intervening years.

Since it does not have "Made in USA" marked on the right side of the frame it was made no later than 1922, but not before 1915 when the 4th change was introduced.

It's a .38 M&P Model of 1905 4th Change, probably pretty early into the production period which began in 1915 at around SN 241000, so I suppose it could be pre-WWI. The star does indicate factory rework of some kind, and I'd guess from the look it was probably reblue. I'm sure someone wiser and more knowledgeable will be along promptly with more detail.

Nice buy, BTW. I'd have been hard pressed to find an excuse to pass it up.

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Ain't This Fun Though?

That's a .38 Military & Police, Model of 1905. It is the predecessor to the Model 10, but we generally only use the term "pre-Model 10" to denote postwar guns that were made before the switch from model names to model numbers.

That serial number would indeed put it in the 1915 to 1916 timeframe. And as you noted, the star indicates a trip back to the factory—probably for a refinishing job.

Nice looking piece!

Mike

Thanks JP. That's about what I figured but I don't think I've ever seen a S&W from that time period, so I wasn't sure. SCSW put the S/N about that time, but I wasn't sure I was even in the right section. I haven't pulled the grips, but I'll make a note to do that if I decide to get it. It's on "hold" for now while I try to figure out if I really want it. My wife about ordered me to put it on layaway. "I'm not going to listen to you whine about it, if it get's away from you."

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John 3:16 .

Smart lady. Listen to her.

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Ain't This Fun Though?

Since your VA DL is laying on the table with the pistol… something is happening.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

Oh, they always get that from me so they can seperate me from all the other "John Smiths" in the computer. Actually she won. I put it on layaway. That way if it WAS something I'd want, I had it locked down. If not, I could just put the money on store credit, and the gun goes back on the shelf.

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John 3:16 .

Pre-WWI era is one of the only times that S&Ws sold mostly in serial number order. Worries were many and gun sales were large. It is almost certain that your revolver shipped sometime during 1916. Even if you did not have the serial number, there are several indicators of age, some of which are noted above to narrow the possibilities. The earliest change made to your revolver is the fact that the ejector rod knob is blued. The ejector rod knob on early M&Ps were given a case hardened finish, screwed into the rod, for blued and nickeled revolvers. With the 38 Model 1905-3rd, the rod and knob became one piece in 1909. After that date, the knobs are blued on blue rods and nickel on nickel rods.

In 1910, the stocks were changed to add a gold medallion. The logo stamping was eliminated in 1917, at the onset of WWI and did not return until around 1919-1920.

I might have missed it, but if not, when you get it, take the stocks off and look for the repair/refinish date on the left side of the frame.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes!!...And neither is anything else...Say Hallelujah, brother!......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

I think I need to start whining more. My wife never told me that.

"Happy wife, happy life" Never argue with the boss ESPECIALLY when she insists that you buy a S&W. That is one of the biggest no brainers that you will face in your life!!!!!

AH the old "pre" discussion raises it's ugly head. Is a baby a pre senior citizen or does it only apply to middle age adults??????

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James Redfield
LM #497

Wait until your sweetheart sees what you’re going to do, you might have to start riding with her to the FFL.
Or not

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IMG_1177.jpg (67.3 KB, 54 views)

4K2022, I believe you might have polished off the gold on those medallions??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

You notice I did NOT call it a "Pre Model 10." I said that's what it was marked as at the LGS. The guy behind the counter said he didn't know who made the tag, but it wasn't him. He knew it was a M&P. It's just neither one of us was sure exactly WHICH M&P it was. I told him not to worry about it. If most people saw it tagged as a M&P they'd tell him it was wrong because a M&P is a semi-auto.

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John 3:16 .

Beautiful revolver. And I am always impressed by the wealth of knowledge put forth so quickly by the members here. Amazing.

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SWCA #3929

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me. I'm a little slow at times.

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John 3:16 .

Ain't that the truth? I had four or five replies before I could respond to the first one.

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John 3:16 .

What Gary is getting at is that the picture seems to show only the brass of the medallions. In this period (1910 to 1920) the medallions were made of brass with a thin wash of gold over them. Appearances indicate the gold has been removed (scrubbed off), leaving only the underlying brass.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Oh, OK. I didn't know about the gold. I was confused when he said .

Someone might have, but it wasn't me. Not Guilty. I admit that I'm quick to grab Flitz and a rag, but in this case, it won't me.



Sorry Gary. My misunderstanding.

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John 3:16 .

This is the predictable result of one of the subsequent owners of S&W, Saf-T Hammer I believe, when they started naming nearly every S&W product as a M&P! This sure does cause un-necessary confusion when people who are not intimately familiar with S&W nomenclature are talking or asking about S&W products. They were attempting to take advantage of the reputation and popularity of the S&W revolver line that had been called this since 1899 and imply that the later models were equal to the renowned M&P revolver.

Sorry, I added that the stocks I was referring to was 4K2022, not you. Jack took care of the reasons to suspect.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes thanks Jack. I added the picture to this thread because I wanted to offer a comparison set. I don’t know if I could tell gold from brass,,, when looking at pictures,, like those in the OP.
What tell tale sign(s) of remaining gold wash is actually visible enough to be seen in pictures? In the picture I posted the center stud is visible!

Next you will probably tell me these are not Silver

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Nothing wrong with those stocks, as they look to be in great shape. I can tell from the color, and from experience, that the gold wash was so thin that you can not even clean them. I learned this early in my collecting days when I received a gun with worn stocks and dark medallions. I set about cleaning them with a Q-tip and Brasso. When done, they were as shinny as a new penney, but almost look sliver. There was a brief time when they looked like gold as the brass oxidized, then returned to dull color over time.

I took your picture and edited it to bring out where the brass was and where the gold remains. Look for the light silvery brass color on most of the left side, and the same color just on the raised portion on the right stock. I also added a new-old-stock set that our expert stock/grip restorer, Curtis, did that show the true color of unpolished original gold medallions. Hope this helps.

Attached Images

	IMG_1177.jpg (71.6 KB, 197 views)
	Gold Medalions.jpg (98.9 KB, 199 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I figured as green as the ones on the gun I pictured in post 1 are that they were just plain ol' brass.

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John 3:16 .

That’s the part, the gold! That might interest your wife on future visits.

Thanks for your time. This is most helpful. You’ve mentioned before the comparisons to a known example! Experience is often an expensive instructor

Got it home this morning, and cleaned it up a bit and it's more or less presentable I suppose.

The stocks are original. The S/N is written in pencil on both of them actually.

It went back to the service department in 6/16 by the number on the left side of the grip frame.

The last patent date on the barrel appears to be Sept 14, 09.





It's not "like new" but I don't guess it's too bad for being 100 + years old. It works in my motley accumilation anyway. It still needs to be flushed with gunscrubber, oiled and the bore and charge holes cleaned. I know. I should have done that first, but I don't mind doing the wax job twice.

Hope to get it to the range with some wadcutters tomorrow.

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John 3:16 .

You should start your own thread on this.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I apologize, I thought I was starting a new thread. My bad.