What do I have here my friends??

Gunsquirrel · #1 05-23-2024, 02:46 PM

Looking for info on this one, I believe its a pre 17 (has no model stamped on frame) and serial number is 4883XX whick is stamped on grip frame. Needs a new cylinder stop as cylinder spins freely, would a newer model one work on this one? Over all its a clean gun at about 90%+ blueing. Estimate on value in north east section of America? No box/papers ect, jst the gun

Retired W4 · #2 05-23-2024, 02:48 PM

Nice looking 22/32 HFT. The wood looks really good.

Retired W4 · #3 05-23-2024, 02:52 PM

As for the cylinder stop, the forward trigger screw type is different compared to 3 screw frames.

murphydog · #4 05-23-2024, 02:59 PM

I would think it would be worth $750 or so, minus the repair cost. Don’t know how to estimate that without a full inspection and quote.

Gunhohulk · #5 05-23-2024, 03:55 PM

Is the screw in front of the trigger guard in place? I wonder if the cylinder stop is fine and the screw and spring are loose or missing.

Gunsquirrel · #6 05-23-2024, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunhohulk

Is the screw in front of the trigger guard in place? I wonder if the cylinder stop is fine and the screw and spring are loose or missing.

Screw is in place, will check the spring next and see..Thank you!

mikepriwer · #7 05-23-2024, 04:19 PM

If the cylinder spins free, then either the cylinder stop is missing, or its stuck down, or the spring behind the 5th frame screw (in front of the trigger guard) is broken or missing, or the plunger behind that spring is stuck or missing.

If you know how to dis-assemble the lockwork, you can get at the cylinder stop, and see what needs to be done. It's an easy fix, and I, or someone else, can guide you.

Regards, Mike Priwer

rct269 · #8 05-23-2024, 04:38 PM

Given this is an I frame, is there a 5th frame screw securing the cylinder stop/spring assembly?

Ralph Tremaine

Edited to add: I asked this question for two reasons. The first is my HFT left here along with the rest of my collection four years ago, and was sold somewhere along the line during the next three years and change. The second is it came to live here in the spring of 1998, when it came all apart for its welcome bath. So---on the one hand, if it was still here, I could pick it up and look at it---and on the other hand, it's been 26 years since I had it apart---and there's been A BUNCH more hand ejectors across my bench since then--only one of which was another I frame (.32 Regulation Police Target); and I flat don't remember the innards of either one of them. I can give you chapter and verse on K and N frames---having had my grubby little paws on a tad over 200 of them since the beginning---a looooooooooooooooong time ago!

Muley Gil · #9 05-23-2024, 05:15 PM

This is NOT a pre Model 17. This is an I frame revolver and the Model 17 is built on the K frame.

Gun Relics · #10 05-24-2024, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunsquirrel

Looking for info on this one, I believe its a pre 17 (has no model stamped on frame) and serial number is 4883XX whick is stamped on grip frame. Needs a new cylinder stop as cylinder spins freely, would a newer model one work on this one? Over all its a clean gun at about 90%+ blueing. Estimate on value in north east section of America? No box/papers ect, jst the gun

This is the Bekeart model according to standard catalog of Smith and Wesson page 132. My assumption is that yours does not have recessed head cases in the cylinder which began in 1935 with serial number 525,600. I don't have the exact date but I'm guessing around 1930.

murphydog · #11 05-24-2024, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rct269

Given this is an I frame, is there a 5th frame screw securing the cylinder stop/spring assembly?

Ralph Tremaine

Edited to add: I asked this question for two reasons. The first is my HFT left here along with the rest of my collection four years ago, and was sold somewhere along the line during the next three years and change. The second is it came to live here in the spring of 1998, when it came all apart for its welcome bath. So---on the one hand, if it was still here, I could pick it up and look at it---and on the other hand, it's been 26 years since I had it apart---and there's been A BUNCH more hand ejectors across my bench since then--only one of which was another I frame (.32 Regulation Police Target); and I flat don't remember the innards of either one of them. I can give you chapter and verse on K and N frames---having had my grubby little paws on a tad over 200 of them since the beginning---a looooooooooooooooong time ago!

Yes, the I frame and variations were all 5-screw frames until about 1953. Jim (Hondo44) also calls the early postwar leaf springed guns with the strain screw "6-screw".

steelslaver · #12 05-24-2024, 08:29 AM

A modern J frame stop will probably not work. I am not positive about I or J frames but on the other frames the stop was different for those with and with out the screw. The ones with out the screw have a shallow hole in the stop for the end of the spring while the ones with the screw do not as those have a plunger that pushes on stop.
However, it might be possible to modify a new one by plugging the hole IF the correct one can not be found.

I would first however clean the spring, plunger and stop before worrying about replacement parts. Your gun is about 80 years old and who know when it got a complete cleaning

H Richard · #13 05-24-2024, 10:07 AM

Steelslaver finally alluded to what I was going to, "Is it gunked up and the spring/plunger frozen in place?" Possibly a good soaking in Kroil (or other penetrating oil), then a thorough cleaning.

mikepriwer · #14 05-24-2024, 11:26 AM

You can see the 5th frame screw - in front of the trigger guard - in each of the two pictures originally posted. A first test might be to remove the 5th frame screw, stand the gun on the end of the barrel, and put a few drops of any good penetrating oil (Kroil if you have any) in the 5th frame screw hole. Let it soak for a few hours. Then, with a very thin ( 1/16") wooden dowel piece , place it in the hole, and tap very very gently. Then open the cylinder, and see if the cylinder stop has popped up. If it has, you can push it a couple times, then put back the 5th frame screw, and it ought to run properly. More than likely, the gun needs to be disassembled and cleaned thoroughly.

Regards, Mike Priwer

rct269 · #15 05-24-2024, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

Yes, the I frame and variations were all 5-screw frames until about 1953. Jim (Hondo44) also calls the early postwar leaf springed guns with the strain screw "6-screw".

Well that helps to explain my abysmal ignorance!

There is exactly one target grade S&W that still lives here---a .22/32 Kit Gun I've owned since forever------65 some odd years ago---give or take a bit.

It seems as though somewhere along the line I "gave it" to the Boss Lady. She can (and will) confirm that--at the drop of a hat!! She has used it from time to time to dispatch critters who had the audacity to invade her gardens.

It's still here because when I decided it would be best to liquidate my collection, she decided I couldn't sell that one---because it was her's---end of discussion!!

It does not have the 5th screw cylinder stop arrangement---relying instead on a weird little spring (to be installed as an assembly with the cylinder stop). I know this because that very same Hondo44 told me so when I was bumfuzzled enough to ask for help.

It's been a good while since all that came to pass--since Wednesday, August 1, 2018----and August 2, 2018 when he replied-----complete with an illustration yet. I know these things because I printed out his response, and I still have it!!

It's good to know of folks who've forgotten more than you know about stuff!

Ralph Tremaine

Gunsquirrel · #16 05-24-2024, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunhohulk

Is the screw in front of the trigger guard in place? I wonder if the cylinder stop is fine and the screw and spring are loose or missing.

Both screw and spring are in place..

Hondo44 · #17 05-24-2024, 08:01 PM

Open the cylinder, can you see the cylinder stop in its rectangular hole? Drop oil in there.

That stop was used on several I frame models (1/2 million plus guns). If you need one or the spring Gun Parts Dist. should have them.

Have you removed a side plate on a S&W before? If not we’ll be happy to assist to avoid damage.

Unless the stud in frame is broken, it’s a simple repair. The gun is in nice shape and I would put it in the $1000 range. It was made on the cusp and of the 1920s; when the mushroom knob was replaced with the barrel knob but before the grip medallions were reinstated (if the grips have a matching serial #).

Gunsquirrel · #18 05-25-2024, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Open the cylinder, can you see the cylinder stop in its rectangular hole? Drop oil in there.

That stop was used on several I frame models (1/2 million plus guns). If you need one or the spring Gun Parts Dist. should have them.

Have you removed a side plate on a S&W before? If not we’ll be happy to assist to avoid damage.

Unless the stud in frame is broken, it’s a simple repair. The gun is in nice shape and I would put it in the $1000 range. It was made on the cusp and of the 1920s; when the mushroom knob was replaced with the barrel knob but before the grip medallions were reinstated (if the grips have a matching serial #).

I am familure with the J/K/N frame takedowns and I actually have a pre-31 I frame but have never opened that one. Going to give it a good through cleaning this weekend and see what happens. Useing a dental pick thru the hole in the cylinder stop I can pull it up slightly so it may just be lack of maintenance by previous owners.

Gunsquirrel · #19 05-26-2024, 10:47 AM

Still working on it!! This is what the inside looks like after all these years, not too dirty at all. Will give it a through break down and cleaning an see if that fixes the issue. I will note that for it looking like it has'nt been shot too much there is a drag line on the cylinder so maybe it has a cylinder stop that is bad?

mikepriwer · #20 05-26-2024, 11:46 AM

I can see the cylinder stop is up, and resting against the side of the cylinder. Try rotating the cylinder counter-clockwise, slowly, and see if it will go into the next stop notch, and stop the cylinder.

I also see that the bottom of the notch in the cylinder stop is resting against the bottom of the pull-down projection of the trigger. I can't be sure, but it looks like the trigger is not forward all the way. This would keep the cylinder stop from rising any further. Maybe some debris is keeping the trigger from returning forward all the way. See if it will move forward just a bit more, so as to let the cylinder stop rise into a stop notch.

Look at the amount of rise the cylinder stop has now, to where its resting against the side of the cylinder. Then, open the cylinder, and see if it will rise further. Or, with the sideplate off, single action the hammer several times, and see if the stop works. Maybe there is some dirt under the cylinder stop, and pressure from the sideplate is inhibiting its range of travel.

Everything looks to be there. Possibly a cleaning will resolve the problem.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Retired W4 · #21 05-26-2024, 05:42 PM

Mike is on to something. That lip on the trigger looks to leaning on the stop.

Joe wanted to see some stops with varying degrees of wear. See below. They appear to be very different from each other.

From Joe's last photo I can see the pin against the forward part of the stop. That's a good thing because if was stuck back in it's hole you would see just what the gun is doing wrong.

Here's hoping all works out well.

Hondo44 · #22 05-26-2024, 07:41 PM

The scribed line around the cylinder is way off center which means the cylinder stop hump was misshaped, and poorly fitted too low for a long time.
After many years of use the hump has worn further to the point that we see the current malfunction.

The stop needs refitting; the height and shape of the hump, and the engagement notch with the front trigger lever. Even a new stop would need the same fitting so no need to buy a new one.

It also needs the edges of the cylinder notches peened level with the cylinder surface before fitting the stop.

If you haven’t fitted one, it’s not difficult. Google for a demo video or buy a Kuhnhausen S&W shop manual.

mikepriwer · #23 05-27-2024, 11:31 AM

There are at least two different sizes of these cylinder stops. In the picture above, one of those is a K-frame, and the other may be an I frame.

By the way, with the side plate off the gun, you can do some diagnostic work, simply by watching what is happening when you single-action the revolver.

Mike Priwer

Gunsquirrel · #24 05-27-2024, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelslaver

A modern J frame stop will probably not work. I am not positive about I or J frames but on the other frames the stop was different for those with and with out the screw. The ones with out the screw have a shallow hole in the stop for the end of the spring while the ones with the screw do not as those have a plunger that pushes on stop.
However, it might be possible to modify a new one by plugging the hole IF the correct one can not be found.

I would first however clean the spring, plunger and stop before worrying about replacement parts. Your gun is about 80 years old and who know when it got a complete cleaning

Entire break down, all parts ultrasonic cleaned and lubed before re-assembly but the stop is definitely worn (as the picture shows) for some reason, there was a lot of old oil and crud on some of the parts but all have been indidually brushed after the bath..this gun has not seen daylight in about 40 years I am told.

Gunsquirrel · #25 05-27-2024, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

There are at least two different sizes of these cylinder stops. In the picture above, one of those is a K-frame, and the other may be an I frame.

By the way, with the side plate off the gun, you can do some diagnostic work, simply by watching what is happening when you single-action the revolver.

Mike Priwer

Mike,
After the cleaning and with side plate off the gun cycles perfectly, but it still doesn't lock up, it is a lot closer than before but still pushes off..

mikepriwer · #26 05-27-2024, 08:35 PM

"pushes off" usually refers to being able to push the hammer forward, when it is sitting in single-action lock. The gun is cocked, and being held in that position by the sharp edge of the trigger sitting in the groove on the toe of the hammer.

It sounds like you are referring to being able to turn the cylinder by hand, when it should be locked in firing position by the end of the cylinder stop sitting in a stop notch on the cylinder.

I can think of only a few things that are going wrong. One would be that there is a debris buildup in the notches, such that the stop can not drop into it. A related issue would be damage to the edges of the stop notches, such that the stop can not get into the notches.

Another would be that the cylinder stop is not rising high enough, to get all the way into the notch. Or, the width of the stop itself is sticking as it goes through the rectangular slot in the floor of the frame window. Or, the neck of the stop is hitting that rectangular slot before it can get all the way up. Or, the end of the stop is worn on an angle, when it should be straight across.

With the hammer and trigger out of the gun, you can press on the underside of the neck of the stop, to see if you can push it up further, or where it might be hitting something that is interfering with its movement.

Jim (Hondo) and I are probably taking about the same thing, from two different perspectives.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Gunsquirrel · #27 05-28-2024, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

"pushes off" usually refers to being able to push the hammer forward, when it is sitting in single-action lock. The gun is cocked, and being held in that position by the sharp edge of the trigger sitting in the groove on the toe of the hammer.

It sounds like you are referring to being able to turn the cylinder by hand, when it should be locked in firing position by the end of the cylinder stop sitting in a stop notch on the cylinder.

I can think of only a few things that are going wrong. One would be that there is a debris buildup in the notches, such that the stop can not drop into it. A related issue would be damage to the edges of the stop notches, such that the stop can not get into the notches.

Another would be that the cylinder stop is not rising high enough, to get all the way into the notch. Or, the width of the stop itself is sticking as it goes through the rectangular slot in the floor of the frame window. Or, the neck of the stop is hitting that rectangular slot before it can get all the way up. Or, the end of the stop is worn on an angle, when it should be straight across.

With the hammer and trigger out of the gun, you can press on the underside of the neck of the stop, to see if you can push it up further, or where it might be hitting something that is interfering with its movement.

Jim (Hondo) and I are probably taking about the same thing, from two different perspectives.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
My mistake on the term pushes off, no issues with the hammer just the cylinder rotating when it shouldn't. The stop is up as far as it can go but as in the one picture where I am holding it, you can see its worn down on one side so there is the issue. The stop notches seem to be ok but I will go thru it again today. Joe

glowe · #28 05-28-2024, 09:53 AM

Your cylinder stop is very rough, nothing like what I normally see inside a S&W?? I compared your stop to the ones that Retired W4 posted and think your stop has been the victim of some crude alterations. First, the height of your stop is much less than than it should be. Look at the image below to see the difference. I flipped your stop to make is easier to compare. Second, there is a severe cant on the stop, which is not something the factory did. The top should be flat not angles as you show. Time to look for a different stop. Check with Numrich and Jack First for a replacement.

What do I have here my friends??-img_1544-jpg

What do I have here my friends??-img_1544-jpg

glowe · #29 05-28-2024, 12:36 PM

I do not have an image of a 22/32 stop out of the gun, but here are two different period I frames showing the stops in position on working examples. The more I look at the OP's pictures, the more I wonder if that stop was even correct for the period or the model??

What do I have here my friends??-p1010002-jpg

What do I have here my friends??-p1010002-jpg

What do I have here my friends??-p1010006-jpg

Retired W4 · #30 05-28-2024, 01:06 PM

I just looked at the angle on Gunsquirrel's stop. Not good. I can see where that might cause the cylinder to spin.

Hondo44 · #31 05-28-2024, 02:10 PM

The stop must have a slight angle on the top of the hump but the angle on your stop was improperly fitted and is excessive! Even if it locked when cylinder is rotated in forward direction it would slip out of the notch in the opposite direction.

That needs to be corrected first. Then the height of the hump must be increased by filing down the shelf in front of the hump.

Gunsquirrel · #32 05-28-2024, 05:16 PM

Jim,
yes, it is very worn on one side. Also I dont know why the piece looks so rough, it is not that bad looking in "person". Joe

Hondo44 · #33 05-28-2024, 05:40 PM

Joe,

A properly fitted stop can function 100 years of use with a little maintenance and lubrication. A stop cannot be worn like yours. It’s been misshaped by someone who didn’t know proper fitting!

Your stop does look rough for a S&W part: who knows what the source was. It will still work when properly fitted.

mikepriwer · #34 05-28-2024, 10:27 PM

Joe

I have a few of these stops. here is a picture of two of them, standing on the flat bottoms.

The one on the left is about 0.015" shorter thn the one on the right. The height of the one on the left is ~0.610", and the one on the right is ~0.625".

There were all supposed to be for K-frames, and maybe this height difference means nothing, or maybe the shorter one is for an I-frame.

I think that the stop for an I-frame ought to be shorter, but maybe it has to be shorter than the short one here. it ought to be shorter, because the frame is smaller.

If you'd like, i can send you the shorter one, if you would like to try it.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Gunsquirrel · #35 05-29-2024, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Joe

I have a few of these stops. here is a picture of two of them, standing on the flat bottoms.

The one on the left is about 0.015" shorter thn the one on the right. The height of the one on the left is ~0.610", and the one on the right is ~0.625".

There were all supposed to be for K-frames, and maybe this height difference means nothing, or maybe the shorter one is for an I-frame.

I think that the stop for an I-frame ought to be shorter, but maybe it has to be shorter than the short one here. it ought to be shorter, because the frame is smaller.

If you'd like, i can send you the shorter one, if you would like to try it.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
Thank you, another member (retired W4) Tom is sending me up a I frame stop and I will see if that works. I really don'r know how this got so worn as the gun hasn't been outside for at least 40 years from what I was told. Will let you know of my progress after a trip to Vermont..much needed I might add!!

Hondo44 · #36 05-29-2024, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunsquirrel

I really don'r know how this got so worn as the gun hasn't been outside for at least 40 years from what I was told.

Joe, there’s no way the stop could wear that way! See post #33.

mikepriwer · #37 05-30-2024, 11:29 AM

Joe

Here's hoping the replacement cylinder stop solves the problem.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Gunsquirrel · #38 06-06-2024, 04:51 PM

Here are two pictures of the stop sent to me by Tom. Both are larger than the one I have (left side) as seen in the pictures. The search continues for the correct part!!

Mark Pilcher · #39 06-06-2024, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunsquirrel

Here are two pictures of the stop sent to me by Tom. Both are larger than the one I have (left side) as seen in the pictures. The search continues for the correct part!!

I would lay the old one on top of the new one, using the stud hole for reference, and dress the new one down. It's better to have more material to work with than less when fitting it up to the cylinder.

Gunsquirrel · #40 06-14-2024, 05:58 PM

OK, first and foremost a huge Thank you to all who responded to this thread, I find there is a wealth of information from all the members here, all you have to do is ask and thus..my problem is solved!! Retired W4 (Tom) was kind enough to send up two cylinder stops but they were the wrong size. Got into a side conversation with Mikepriwer (Mike) who made a suggestion of looking at a part on GB for a .32HE. Well then the light bulb went on as I have a Pre-33 I frame in the safe. After a quick disassemble and inserting the cylinder stop into the Bekeart model the issue of free spinning cylinder went away, that part returned to the Pre-33 and off to the internet. Called several gunparts dealers listed on an old thread here and was basically told "Good luck finding one for that model", no one mentioned looking for a .32 HE model one. Next to Ebay and there it was, in fact a couple of .32 HE cylinder stops. Arrived today and for less that $25 the gun is back toigether and locking up nice and tight! I am very glad to have saved this one and looking forward to some range time with it. Again, Thanks to all who supplied some info on the repair, glad to be member here.

Also, here is a picture of both stops together, mine is on the right and you can see the problem..

Retired W4 · #41 06-14-2024, 06:49 PM

I love it when a plan comes together Joe. We are going to need a range report on your newly functioning gun.

Hondo44 · #42 06-14-2024, 07:17 PM

Congrats!!!

Recall my post #17 above:

"That stop was used on several I frame models (1/2 million plus guns)."

Your almost done; the gun will stay in tune a lot longer if you were to peen the cyl notch edges flat. Take a perfectly smooth, flat piece of polished steel, place it over the burred notch edges and gently tap until they are flat again. The flat side of a chisel blade works extremely well.